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Dugimodo
168 posts

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  #2407918 28-Jan-2020 09:24
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I own a 2013 Leaf and I really like it, but It's not suitable as the only means of transport for me and I think probably most people.

 

As a second vehicle for short range commuting it's perfect, for anything else it's a compromise at best.

 

After owning it as my sole vehicle for a couple of months I ended up buying a cheap petrol car as a second vehicle for those times the Leaf can't do the job.

 

 

 

Over a typical year I will do 5-6 thousand km in the leaf and 1-2 thousand km in the corolla. I use the leaf whenever I can because it's better to drive and cheaper to run. It's likely to take me 5+ years of ownership to break even on the trade in deal I did for the leaf by which time I suspect it's resale value will be virtually nothing.

 

 

 

As much as I like the leaf the truth is when I compare my $17000 2013 leaf with my $8000 2007 corolla the leaf wins on running costs and driving experience and the corolla wins on every other point. (it's actually a corolla Rumion - not too important just a different body style).

 

 

 

One thing you may not expect if you buy a leaf is how often people will feel the need to inform you of all it's short comings, or how often you might end up defending owning an electric car. I think performance ICE car enthusiasts in particular view them as low performance golf carts and not real cars and a lot of people feel like they are being preached at and told they have to own one and react negatively to that. I'm not sure who it is that's forcing anyone to buy electric, but people certainly seem to feel that way.

 

 

 

And on the subject of Leaf batteries. It seems like for the most part they degrade at 2-3% per year in a temperate climate under normal usage. Mine is currently at 35000km and 79-80% SOH (varies). Mileage seems to be less of a factor than age. I think the reality is very few people will spend $5k+ for a new battery when these cars start hitting 12-15 years old and the usable range drops under 50-60 km. $10k+ is just totally unrealistic at that point as well.

 

So unless some 3rd party starts offer a cheap replacement with improved range I'd say the majority of used nissan leafs are destined to be disposable and only last as long as the original battery. This significantly hurts the environmental impact calculation I think and they may not end up being better than the ICE cars of their era.

 

 


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kotuku4
440 posts

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  #2407931 28-Jan-2020 09:56
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MikeB4: @tdgeek fake article? No not really. We don't build houses for just next week, we build them for the next 100 years plus.

 

I don't think we do build them for 100 years plus.

 

The New Zealand Building Code requires structural elements of a building, with only normal maintenance, to satisfy the performance requirement of the Code for the lesser of the specified intended life of the building or the life of the building be not less than 50 years.

 

Many exterior cladding, roofing etc have protective coatings/finishes only have ten year guarantee with maintenance. 





:)


Talkiet
4574 posts

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  #2407934 28-Jan-2020 10:05
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Dugimodo:

 

I own a 2013 Leaf and I really like it, but It's not suitable as the only means of transport for me and I think probably most people.

 

As a second vehicle for short range commuting it's perfect, for anything else it's a compromise at best.

 

After owning it as my sole vehicle for a couple of months I ended up buying a cheap petrol car as a second vehicle for those times the Leaf can't do the job.

 

[snip]

 

 

Thanks for sharing the experience - although I don't have an EV (I would LOVE one BTW) this matches pretty much exactly with what I would expect...

 

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.




tdgeek
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  #2407937 28-Jan-2020 10:12
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Dugimodo:

 

I own a 2013 Leaf and I really like it, but It's not suitable as the only means of transport for me and I think probably most people.

 

As a second vehicle for short range commuting it's perfect, for anything else it's a compromise at best.

 

 

 

 

Nice post, from a user and not a preacher

 

Often mentioned here to get the EV as a second car, save emissions. But as you have commented, you did that too, but now that means you own two sets of emissions, so that you can save emissions with your EV. Plus the Leaf will end up in a landfill one day, so unlike the ICE, the Leaf wont have the opportunity to spread the manufacturing emissions over 250,000km+ as ICE do. So, emission reduction is mathematically dubious.

 

EV's will come into their own when we can replace the ICE not add to it.


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2407945 28-Jan-2020 10:27
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tdgeek:

 

Dugimodo:

 

I own a 2013 Leaf and I really like it, but It's not suitable as the only means of transport for me and I think probably most people.

 

As a second vehicle for short range commuting it's perfect, for anything else it's a compromise at best.

 

 

 

 

Nice post, from a user and not a preacher

 

Often mentioned here to get the EV as a second car, save emissions. But as you have commented, you did that too, but now that means you own two sets of emissions, so that you can save emissions with your EV. Plus the Leaf will end up in a landfill one day, so unlike the ICE, the Leaf wont have the opportunity to spread the manufacturing emissions over 250,000km+ as ICE do. So, emission reduction is mathematically dubious.

 

EV's will come into their own when we can replace the ICE not add to it.

 

 

The Leaf's body will go to the scrapyard, the batteries will continue on in an energy storage system. Eventually they'll be recycled (where nearly 95%+ of the materials can be reused).

 

Let's be clear though, this is specific to the Leaf and any other EV that doesn't have active thermal management of the battery. Something like a Tesla or Kona that does have that will last much, much longer.


tdgeek
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  #2407953 28-Jan-2020 10:39
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Obraik:

 

 

 

The Leaf's body will go to the scrapyard, the batteries will continue on in an energy storage system. Eventually they'll be recycled (where nearly 95%+ of the materials can be reused).

 

Let's be clear though, this is specific to the Leaf and any other EV that doesn't have active thermal management of the battery. Something like a Tesla or Kona that does have that will last much, much longer.

 

 

Lets see. The old EVs have failed, here is hoping the new EVs are better, and they will run a productive 250,000km life.

 

The OP's points are still valid, his use case was not unique, yet he still had to own and use an ICE, so we have manufactured and emitted two lots of CO2, but he only needs one car. When we can all buy an EV to replace the ICE then we are there.


Geektastic
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  #2407955 28-Jan-2020 10:41
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frednz:

Geektastic:


Obraik:


Geektastic:


Must be 100% identical in every way to a current vehicle. So must charge in 5 minutes or less, must do at least 800km per charge, must be available in any vehicle form I might choose (ie new Land Rover Defender through to Subaru Forester) and the charging stations must be at least as frequent and accessible as the current petrol station network.



So a combination of requirements to make up a rather unique need



I never claimed it was unique.


In fact I think it is very far from unique.


At the moment the argument appears thus:


"EVs are good - you must buy one even if it doesn't really suit your home/business/lifestyle needs."


EVs are still pretty new tech and the available vehicle types are extremely limited, as are many other capabilities unless you opt for something fairly expensive like a Tesla.


The adage 'Build it and they will come' almost certainly applies. However...as yet, it isn't being built. We took something like 100 years to get cars to where they are now. It will take more than a comparative 5 minutes to make EVs fulfill all the needs people have for vehicles.


I have no objection to EVs in principle but for my work and my personal needs, there isn't one that will work yet.


I'd say that probably encompasses the vast majority of potential purchasers otherwise we would see Teslas etc everywhere all the time and we do not.



There are, of course, two aspects to buying an EV. The first is simply a choice between a petrol / diesel vehicle (ICE) and an electric vehicle (EV). 


The second aspect is feeling a certain amount of pressure / compulsion to buy an EV because of the need to reduce our emissions. 


And it's "for the sake of the planet" that some people feel a strong need to buy an EV even if it's too expensive and even if it doesn't meet all their motoring needs and simply isn't as good as an ICE.


Environmentalists talk about the need to make some sacrifices in order to help reduce omissions and a switch to EVs wouldn't be nearly as achievable if people stuck to the line that an EV must NOW be able to have the full range and equivalent price etc of an ICE. Not to mention that you must be able to charge up your EV anywhere in the country in 5 minutes without having to wait in a queue to do so!


The "Greenies" often come out with statements like "Do you want to do your bit for the planet or not, and if you do, ditch your ICE and buy an EV now, or use a bicycle or walk everywhere"!


And there's a certain amount of truth to that. For example, the bushfires in Australia have stirred a lot more people into believing that we do in fact have a climate change crisis on our hands. Perhaps this may lead to a greater take-up of EVs in Australia (and here)?


 


 


 



However I suspect having no - or fewer - children would save far more over time than driving an EV. Thereโ€™s often a lot of publicity attached to things that are less effective than other things.







Dugimodo
168 posts

Master Geek


  #2407956 28-Jan-2020 10:42
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Obraik:

 

The Leaf's body will go to the scrapyard, the batteries will continue on in an energy storage system. Eventually they'll be recycled (where nearly 95%+ of the materials can be reused).

 

Let's be clear though, this is specific to the Leaf and any other EV that doesn't have active thermal management of the battery. Something like a Tesla or Kona that does have that will last much, much longer.

 

 

 

 

Agreed that it's Leaf specific, at this point in NZ though the Leaf is the only affordable(ish) option for many potential EV owners.

 

 

 

And good point about the batteries, currently a second hand battery broken up and sold as individual cells is selling for $100+ per cell and there are 48 of them. It's entirely possible old leafs will have more value scrapped than sold at some point.

 

The hope is batteries will get a lot cheaper though, which may have the downside of reducing the market for second hand ones.

 

 

 

My hope is that in the next 2-3 years I can either trade up to a EV with 200km or more open road range to replace my two cars, or someone will make a battery pack upgrade for a reasonable price to improve my older Leaf. For me personally having lived with a leaf for almost 8 months I think 200km is the minimum I can comfortably live with as an only vehicle. I don't mind a couple of extra stops on my occasional longer trip and 200km gets me pretty much anywhere I want to go without too much hassle but with my current leaf there are several trips I just can't do.


Dugimodo
168 posts

Master Geek


  #2408017 28-Jan-2020 11:23
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Here's an interesting thought, although not actually practical .

 

 

 

A tesla powerwall 2 is $13000 approximatley in NZ and is 14KWH

 

A second hand leaf with 60% SOH is approx 14KWH as well, and costs about the same for a whole car....

 

 

 

Unfortunately the hardware to use your car as storage for the home is not available here and prohibitively expensive.

 

 

 

There may come a day when your car is also backup power for your house and charged by solar power. At least for those that can afford it.

 

This is already possible now but far from affordable. I love the Idea though. Solar power of some kind is likely in my future, but home storage is still too expensive.


wellygary
6725 posts

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  #2408019 28-Jan-2020 11:31
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Dugimodo:

 

I love the Idea though. Solar power of some kind is likely in my future, but home storage is still too expensive.

 

 

In a country with an 85% renewable grid (and likely to be close to 95% in the next 10 years,) it will never be the most optimal $/C02 option,

 

Spending the money to time shift consumption is a much better bang for your buck...


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2408059 28-Jan-2020 12:20
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tdgeek:

 

Lets see. The old EVs have failed, here is hoping the new EVs are better, and they will run a productive 250,000km life.

 

The OP's points are still valid, his use case was not unique, yet he still had to own and use an ICE, so we have manufactured and emitted two lots of CO2, but he only needs one car. When we can all buy an EV to replace the ICE then we are there.

 

 

We already can see. Old EVs without any thermal management have failed, old EVs with that are still doing fine. As I've mentioned in other threads, there are high mileage Tesla's that still have over 90% of their capacity remaining. From 2016 there was this information and an updated one from 2018. There's also this guy who has done 1million km's on his.


tdgeek
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  #2408069 28-Jan-2020 12:43
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Lets see. The old EVs have failed, here is hoping the new EVs are better, and they will run a productive 250,000km life.

 

The OP's points are still valid, his use case was not unique, yet he still had to own and use an ICE, so we have manufactured and emitted two lots of CO2, but he only needs one car. When we can all buy an EV to replace the ICE then we are there.

 

 

We already can see. Old EVs without any thermal management have failed, old EVs with that are still doing fine. As I've mentioned in other threads, there are high mileage Tesla's that still have over 90% of their capacity remaining. From 2016 there was this information and an updated one from 2018. There's also this guy who has done 1million km's on his.

 

 

Once all the 2012 Corollas and the older and newer ICE's are all updated with brand new Tesla's it will be good


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2408078 28-Jan-2020 12:53
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tdgeek:

 

Once all the 2012 Corollas and the older and newer ICE's are all updated with brand new Tesla's it will be good

 

 

Thankfully Nissan is really the only one not using active thermal technology in their new cars so one doesn't need to buy a brand new Tesla to get that longevity ๐Ÿ˜‰


tdgeek
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  #2408120 28-Jan-2020 13:00
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Once all the 2012 Corollas and the older and newer ICE's are all updated with brand new Tesla's it will be good

 

 

Thankfully Nissan is really the only one not using active thermal technology in their new cars so one doesn't need to buy a brand new Tesla to get that longevity ๐Ÿ˜‰

 

 

My point went over your head but that's ok.


Obraik
1617 posts

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  #2408128 28-Jan-2020 13:07
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Once all the 2012 Corollas and the older and newer ICE's are all updated with brand new Tesla's it will be good

 

 

Thankfully Nissan is really the only one not using active thermal technology in their new cars so one doesn't need to buy a brand new Tesla to get that longevity ๐Ÿ˜‰

 

 

My point went over your head but that's ok.

 

 

Sometimes it's bit like a roulette wheel trying to pick the exact point you're trying to make ๐Ÿ™ƒ


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