Do I need an employment lawyer?

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#2752401 30-Jul-2021 12:39

nzkiwiman:

Any offer they made will need to be in writing and be able to be presented to a employment lawyer (the community law centre, I don't want to spend money on a real one). Until then, the resignation is still active and the timer is ticking over.

One of my friends has made a suggestion that I need to lock in any promises that they make into my employment contract with penalties if they break them (and probably if I break them as well)

Just to be clear, I would accept their offer and take their money and complete my work as I'm paid to, but I would probably just accept that it's time to start looking for something else.

Remember, you wouldn't be in this boat if they valued you in the first place and they've already shown they are happy to take things to the limit of what is reasonable and possibly beyond in terms of what is legal. You can spend time trying to engineer a contract you don't think they can breach, but they'll just ignore it and play percentages if they really want to.

Handle9

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#2752403 30-Jul-2021 12:41

GV27:
nzkiwiman:

Any offer they made will need to be in writing and be able to be presented to a employment lawyer (the community law centre, I don't want to spend money on a real one). Until then, the resignation is still active and the timer is ticking over.

One of my friends has made a suggestion that I need to lock in any promises that they make into my employment contract with penalties if they break them (and probably if I break them as well)

Just to be clear, I would accept their offer and take their money and complete my work as I'm paid to, but I would probably just accept that it's time to start looking for something else.

Remember, you wouldn't be in this boat if they valued you in the first place and they've already shown they are happy to take things to the limit of what is reasonable and possibly beyond in terms of what is legal. You can spend time trying to engineer a contract you don't think they can breach, but they'll just ignore it and play percentages if they really want to.

Yip. Just keep it simple and accept the money and start applying for other jobs. If things improve you can bail out of other opportunities.

elpenguino

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#2752411 30-Jul-2021 12:55

deadlyllama:
nzkiwiman:

Any offer they made will need to be in writing and be able to be presented to a employment lawyer (the community law centre, I don't want to spend money on a real one). Until then, the resignation is still active and the timer is ticking over.

One of my friends has made a suggestion that I need to lock in any promises that they make into my employment contract with penalties if they break them (and probably if I break them as well)

That sounds way too complicated. They've had notice from you about issues in the past and haven't sorted them.

I had a similar experience in 2008. Massively overstressed, ended up with what I now recognise was probably burnout. Couldn't sleep. Employer said they'd fix things but didn't.

That's right.

What you're in is the equivalent of a battered partner relationship. You've got one handle on the doorknob and the partner says 'I'll change'.

Will they though?

Having said that, we all have to eat, so if you can get a pay rise out of them (without having to sign on for eternity) while you look around for an opportunity, all the better,

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Dratsab

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#2752415 30-Jul-2021 13:09

@nzkiwiman - best of luck with whatever you decide!

You summed things up quite clearly when you said "This isn't the first issue I have had with the department and it certainly won't be the last" Given that I generally take the same view as others who say take the money and keep looking, however I would caution you to read very carefully (over a week - allow lots of time to read it and understand it) and make sure there's no lock-in clauses, or anything that could be construed as such, in the new offer. Consider too that the middle management you've dealt with so far may feel humiliated by a higher up stepping in so don't allow them to pressure you in to a hurried decision. You've already played your hand so, from this point, have absolutely nothing to lose. They do.

wlgspotter

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#2752419 30-Jul-2021 13:21

Dratsab:

@nzkiwiman - best of luck with whatever you decide!

You summed things up quite clearly when you said "This isn't the first issue I have had with the department and it certainly won't be the last" Given that I generally take the same view as others who say take the money and keep looking, however I would caution you to read very carefully (over a week - allow lots of time to read it and understand it) and make sure there's no lock-in clauses, or anything that could be construed as such, in the new offer. Consider too that the middle management you've dealt with so far may feel humiliated by a higher up stepping in so don't allow them to pressure you in to a hurried decision. You've already played your hand so, from this point, have absolutely nothing to lose. They do.

+1 to what @Dratsab recommended especially re taking the the time to read their counter proposal and digest it. I have seen situations such as these where the new "terms" turns into more locked in contracts, one common clauses these days it seems is that some employers will try and sneak in an extension to your notice period - where previously it is common to give 30 days notice some has now extended it to 60 or even 90 days, so be extra careful on that.

That said, @nzkiwiman, good luck and all the best for the future, whatever transpires and whatever you decide. Best of all, take care - no job is worth the stress and health sacrifice...

Edit: Fixed typos and grammar

quickymart

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#2752428 30-Jul-2021 13:52

Well done, and I hope you find something more suitable soon. I had a similar situation in late 2007, where I was miserable at a job I thought my whole life I would enjoy. The manager was simply a nasty bully, but (according to him, but I always thought it was bs) he had "shares" in the (small) company I worked for. The owner and him were very buddy-buddy, so I didn't have anywhere else to go higher up the chain.

In the end I just resigned and went to work for a relative for a while. The stress was starting to affect my health in a major way.

It ended up okay though - I got a job for the competition three weeks later (working both this role and for my relative) and I still work for the competitor to this day, proud to say I've got 14 years work history with them now :)

nzkiwiman

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#2752431 30-Jul-2021 14:01

Thanks all; this has been an informative read and I glad that I asked the question in the title.

There are certainly some things I had never considered such as the lock in clause or an extension to my notice period and now I know whatever transpires re withdrawing my resignation, I have to have several other pairs of eyes looking over anything (and it has to be written, not verbal)

I have the follow up call later this afternoon; it probably won't generate the written action I would need though

Mighty Ape

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Scott3

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#2752434 30-Jul-2021 14:14

frankv:

nzkiwiman:

As am update; I got the "please don't leave, we recognise your contributions and we will make everything ok" phone call from the top manager in my chain of command

I let him talk but I knew that deep down he still wasn't understanding the compounding issue that lead to this decision.

He mentioned coming back to me by the end of the day with a proposal.

I have read about this happening to others, but have never been in the situation. My gut feeling is "if they bring in extra money - why wasn't that there last time" & that the environmental issues will still be there because they are not being addressed, so in a months time I'll want to leave again.

His proposal is just a proposal that will solve his problem (you leaving with valuable knowledge amid a difficult hiring market). You don't have to accept it. After you've read it, put together a counter-proposal which includes conditions that prevent a recurrence of the issues that are causing you to resign. Be generous to yourself, because (a) this may just be a starting point for negotiations, and (b) you've put up with this shit for a while, and (c) you don't want to be in the same situation next month or next year, and (d) you'll never be in a stronger position. Consider something like an immediate salary increase, plus an annual increase for inflation, plus something for loyalty and knowledge.

Worst case, he'll reject your counter-proposal outright, and you'll be no worse off than you are now. Best case you get to transform your job into something you actually want and enjoy. As a bonus, you'll have a relationship with the top manager. Build that and make sure it's visible, which will deter your managers from making weasel moves in the future.

Great news for OP, and a great response from frankv.

Employer is trying to scramble and rescue the situation, Your are not the crisis in their eyes. Clearly your input is valued or they wouldn't bother. Given your resignation letter wasn't a bluff, it puts you in a strong position of power. If you don't like the terms, and your counter offer is rejected at least you will have the offer letter to bring with you to interviews as an indication of your value...

As others have said, go to town with our counter offer, and make sure the key issues with your current employment are addressed. Obviously Insist on generous pay / conditions balance. The idea to bake in annual set percentage pay rises (the negotiation of which in the past seems to have been a pain point in the past is a great idea).

Don't let your employer rush you. It will be hard to replace you in this market. Simpy reject any deadlines they try to apply.

Could also put in some penalties for issues that you have raised of the firm doesn't resolve them. Obviously don't know the issues, but i.e.

If head could of department X is below Y, remuneration for you will be increased by $40k until such time that that headcount is greater or equal to Y.

For periods that I am asked to manage more than 6 projects at once, My notice period will be reduced to one week.

Think hard about what (if anything) will resolve the stress issue (obviously very important as it will impact your health). Less hours / days per week? A junior reporting to directly to you? Less staff reporting directly to you? Full control of some aspect being given to you? Change of who you report to?

If an agreement of something workable for you, but where underlying issues remain, moving on could still be the right call, and you will need to weigh up if you are better to accept and look for work with the safety net of a current job, or if letting your resignation stand is the way to go.

martyyn

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#2752447 30-Jul-2021 15:23

I've had similar issues at two jobs. On both occasions I thought staying was the right thing to do because of the financial consequences if I left. But looking back I should have saved myself the stress and grief and just walked away. When my wife convinced me we would be ok if I walked away from the second one the release I felt was unbelievable.

IMO if you have to write clauses and penalties into contracts for your employer to follow then they are not someone you should be working for.

Find someone who values you when you are there, not someone who scrambles to keep you when you walk away.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do. But as others have said, don't make any fast decisions and take your time to look over anything they offer.

nzkiwiman

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#2752638 30-Jul-2021 19:14

So I had the second phone call just before leaving work from the final person in my management chain;

It was interesting with some offers presented

Sticking with removing the dual bonus, in favour of the single bonus at the end of the year (though I am still able to get the dual bonus for the first half of the year)
Another $5k added to the salary offer from yesterday
Another $3k added to the end of year bonus offer from yesterday
Transition to a new role in the department that uses the skills I have self taught myself and was one of the key parts of my original request
Additional paid training (this one .. a bit weak)

There was acknowledgement that the work I have been doing (self taught and foreseeing a need) is appreciated, and there is a significant project coming "soon" that will see me needing to use those skills.

However there continues to be no discussion around the significant pain points I have previously raised; including the toxic culture of the department and the issues that have caused me to take medical leave due to stress earlier this year (complete lack of communication, workload caused by lack of processes)

There was a significant pressure to verbally agree to the conversation as "he is a man of his word" and to remove my resignation from the table. I stood my ground at this point and mentioned that I needed everything mentioned to be in writing and my resignation would continue to remain as a continued bargaining chip.

Approx 45 minutes later, I received an email with a brief run down off the bullet points listed above and another pressure to remove my resignation.

There is currently so much and too much for me to digest at the moment and my head is spinning with a dozen new questions and concerns. I have made a booking at the community law centre for Monday, so hopefully they can see me then.

nzkc

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#2752650 30-Jul-2021 20:09

Firstly do not feel pressured to withdraw your resignation. You've signed nothing so it still applies no matter what they say!

Considering they're putting pressure on you to stay it sounds like they've suddenly realised your value. Reading what they've offered you (and between the lines of what you've said) it really doesn't sound like it's enough IMHO.

You'll get the more money at another job in the current market. I think you should be asking for a 20% (at least) raise. They need to be making the job attractive and for mine they haven't.

I really think you hold all the power here by the sounds of it.

Definitely take your time. Good luck with community lawyer and sign nothing before you've seen them.

If you haven't already... don't reply to their email. I'd be waiting to see if they call over the weekend myself 😁

andrewNZ

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#2752652 30-Jul-2021 20:13

Nothing will change. Even if they pledge to try to change the culture, it won't change.

The odds of the project that is "coming soon" will ever happen are low.

The only promises you can ensure are kept, are those made clearly in the contract.

If you're tempted to accept their offer, I'd suggest asking for a clause that says you can resign with significantly reduced notice within the next 6 months.

Dratsab

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#2752719 30-Jul-2021 23:16

Bravo! Superb work sticking your ground and not caving to their deadline pressure. Best of luck for Monday 👍

JayADee

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#2753036 31-Jul-2021 19:12

If the culture is toxic and has been for that long the odds of it changing are low. I would accept some sort of deal, don't get locked in to a long notice period and look for a new job while they're still paying you which will give you some financial security while you look and also allow you to take your time finding something you like. Your mental health isn’t worth it and the job market right now is really good so I hear.

Also, if you really feel you might like to stay, (or even if you don't) I'd say get an employment advocate rather than a lawyer. They do your talking for you, write all your letters etc., take notes in meetings, hold your hand metaphorically and give you a set of clear eyes to see the situation with. A fresh perspective and a person taking your side and arguing on your behalf is super helpful especially if you're stressed.

Oh and take your time, what are they gonna do now, fire you? ;)

1101

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#2753508 2-Aug-2021 09:38

I would only add, if you have work related stress issues , you need to leave that job .
Ive seen what Work related Stress (toxic workplace) does to people Ive worked with (incl me) , and the long term effects it can have .

Company cultures take a long time to change . Its sometimes best to just leave .
No guarantee a new job will be better though

Also, dont burn bridges , so dont have negotiation demands the current company would never accept .
You want a good reference from them, make sure you leave on good terms.

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