Do I need an employment lawyer?

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Handsomedan

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#2753564 2-Aug-2021 11:22

1101:

[snip]

Also, don't burn bridges , so dont have negotiation demands the current company would never accept .
You want a good reference from them, make sure you leave on good terms.

This.

So important.

The NZ workplace is a small community, generally speaking. I have come across many people that I have either worked with previously or have worked with indirectly (as clients or suppliers etc).

You need to make sure that you walk away with everyone generally feeling like they got out OK - especially you.

Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

*Gladly accepting donations...

nzkiwiman

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#2753717 2-Aug-2021 13:57

Right; so I had a meeting with the community law centre

Without trying to bog them down in the backstory, I gave them the TL;DR version of events and then the fact that I had resigned but had received this offer to stay on. My question to them was around - if I decided that I wanted to accept the offer, can I add in certain "terms and conditions" that the department needs to agree to. I gave them a copy of a draft acceptance email outlining my concerns over the working environment and the terms and conditions (which honestly aren't very demanding - some basic "treat me like others in the department already are" and some clarification around this new role).

The end result was that the law centre it was perfectly valid to ask for these terms and conditions and it may need to go to mediation to sort those extra details out. What I need to do is tidy up the draft email to make it more formal and complete and then it is really up to me if I wanted to actually hand that in, or reject all offers and continue with my resignation.

Obviously that final point is only something I can decide on, and I am leaning towards accepting - mainly in order to continue to have some income while I continue the search for something new.

wlgspotter

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#2753723 2-Aug-2021 14:19

nzkiwiman:

Right; so I had a meeting with the community law centre

Without trying to bog them down in the backstory, I gave them the TL;DR version of events and then the fact that I had resigned but had received this offer to stay on. My question to them was around - if I decided that I wanted to accept the offer, can I add in certain "terms and conditions" that the department needs to agree to. I gave them a copy of a draft acceptance email outlining my concerns over the working environment and the terms and conditions (which honestly aren't very demanding - some basic "treat me like others in the department already are" and some clarification around this new role).

The end result was that the law centre it was perfectly valid to ask for these terms and conditions and it may need to go to mediation to sort those extra details out. What I need to do is tidy up the draft email to make it more formal and complete and then it is really up to me if I wanted to actually hand that in, or reject all offers and continue with my resignation.

Obviously that final point is only something I can decide on, and I am leaning towards accepting - mainly in order to continue to have some income while I continue the search for something new.

Good to hear you've had an opportunity to consult the Community Law Centre on their opinion.

Having said that, what I think given the circumstances that made you come up with this post and to even hand in your resignation in the first place simply means perhaps your time with this company is really up and that you should look elsewhere.

However, your last statement is pretty spot on too - that is if you could get the company to agree to your terms, of terms that you are happy to work with, then it would give you some breathing space to continue looking for something else whilst providing some income for you.

I sincerely hope something works out for you in the end @nzkiwiman - good luck and take care!

Danite

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#2753858 2-Aug-2021 16:08

If you really are just planning on accepting it till you move on I wouldn't bother arguing about clauses, that will just leave a bad taste for the employer and may cause more stress for you at the moment. Take the most money you can then move on when you find the right fit.

andrewNZ

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#2754135 2-Aug-2021 23:14

Danite:
If you really are just planning on accepting it till you move on I wouldn't bother arguing about clauses, that will just leave a bad taste for the employer and may cause more stress for you at the moment. Take the most money you can then move on when you find the right fit.

I don't agree with this. This is an opportunity for the OP to practice real contract negotiations with conditions they feel strongly about, and little risk.
After all, if it goes poorly nothing changes, and if it goes well who knows, the job might even become enjoyable again.

dafman

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#2754214 3-Aug-2021 08:49

andrewNZ:
Danite:

If you really are just planning on accepting it till you move on I wouldn't bother arguing about clauses, that will just leave a bad taste for the employer and may cause more stress for you at the moment. Take the most money you can then move on when you find the right fit.

I don't agree with this. This is an opportunity for the OP to practice real contract negotiations with conditions they feel strongly about, and little risk.
After all, if it goes poorly nothing changes, and if it goes well who knows, the job might even become enjoyable again.

I'm with Danite. It's about good faith negotiation, and you are not negotiating in good faith if you lead your employer to believe you are genuine about negotiating conditions to remain in the job, yet plan to leave as soon as you secure new employment. Or put simply, don't expect a glowing reference when you leave if you head down this path.

frankv

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#2754272 3-Aug-2021 10:16

dafman:

It's about good faith negotiation, and you are not negotiating in good faith if you lead your employer to believe you are genuine about negotiating conditions to remain in the job, yet plan to leave as soon as you secure new employment. Or put simply, don't expect a glowing reference when you leave if you head down this path.

I agree with the good faith part of the argument, so include in the haggling enough changes that would make you want to stay.

But I doubt that a glowing reference is going to be given, regardless. Presumably lower/middle management thought they were acting reasonably, in which case they would see a resignation as unreasonable. The alternative is that they knew they were being unreasonable, and behaving that way because they were winning somehow and thought they could get away with it. Screwing up their game would likely result in a malicious reference.

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nzkiwiman

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#2754325 3-Aug-2021 11:21

Isn't everyone always searching for something new, even if they don't know it?

I could be approached tomorrow and presented with an opportunity I couldn't refuse. It's not going to happen, but we can all wish right.

So in this specific situation, if I accepted their offer - I would be using the "contract negotiations" in order to gain some favourable outcomes to make sure that staying at the company and in this role would actually work out in the long term. So yes .. I am using good faith and my "terms and conditions" are not unreasonable.

But I also have to be real; the issues that have lead me to this point will probably happen again and I don't want to have to go through this ever again. So yes, if I accepted the offer, I am certainly going to look for new opportunities, but some of the choices of potential new opportunities will be significantly different to those I would chase when I am unemployed.

Today's update; with some assistance I cleaned up my draft email and sent it through; advising that I would conditionally accept the offer (without mentioning anything about taking my resignation off the table), while mentioning the issues that the offer failed to mention and including three "terms and conditions" that I would need to be happy with.

I am currently working on cleaning up the significant number of questions and concerns I have around the offer.

frankv

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#2754354 3-Aug-2021 12:00

nzkiwiman:

So in this specific situation, if I accepted their offer - I would be using the "contract negotiations" in order to gain some favourable outcomes to make sure that staying at the company and in this role would actually work out in the long term. So yes .. I am using good faith and my "terms and conditions" are not unreasonable.

Yeah, the good faith has to cut both ways. Is the employer actually negotiating in good faith (i.e. prepared to actually change the environment)? If you do

You should always have some viable alternative in mind when doing any negotiation, which will give you a bottom line where you would just walk away from the deal. The better your alternative, the better your bottom line. If your situation is "I have a mortgage and will lose my house if I'm out of work for 3 months", you pretty much have to accept whatever they offer, or take some other low-paid job. So I'd be getting employment offers before agreeing to whatever they're offering. Which is probably why they're pressuring you to decide right now.

Tell them you'll withdraw your resignation for a month whilst you try out their offer. And of course use that month to look for other jobs, so you can either get a better job or negotiate harder on this job.

KiwiSurfer

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#2754657 3-Aug-2021 20:05

A number of years ago I resigned from organisation after a period of time feeling quite unhappy with how people were being treated etc. Both myself and others attempted to speak up but we found that the rot went right up to the very top. My and our team's engagements with the higher ups didn't go very far. Funnily enough as soon as I handed in my resignation I borne the brunt of awful behaviour by certain higher ups which made it quite clear to me that I made the right decision. I still kept in touch with various ex-colleagues over the years and sadly a lot of the issues have remained many years later--making it clear that had I stayed nothing would have changed. Many have stayed because they don't know if they would find a better paying job elsewhere and need to support their family etc.

I left without a new job to go to and went overseas for a planned holiday, although given my resignation I ended up extending the holiday a few more weeks. Luckily I was single at the time with no dependants so had lots of flexibility. Travelling and staying with friends overseas gave me the space to really think about what I wanted out of life etc. On my return to New Zealand I had a clear plan for what I wanted to do with my life and started working on executing that plan. I went back to study to retrain in different career and was employed full time in my new career within three years.

I consider my decision to resign a good decision--although at the time it entirely didn't feel that way. I left a wonderful team and a job I genuinely liked doing and would have been happy to continue for several years had the original management team been in place. But at the end of the day I didn't want to spend a 1/3 of my life putting up with the new management team's approach which I felt was not conductive to a healthy working condition and worried I'd become the next victim of certain tactics I had seen the higher ups use.

My only two regret is that (1) I didn't make sure I had a good financial buffer and (2) I didn't resign earlier. One will note the two regrets can be contradictory! It can be tricky finding a balance between staying on as long as you can to build up your financial buffer and balancing that against the drain on your mental health that you incur by staying on longer. Hopefully you are in a financial position to be able to do what's best for your health and not having to worry about money at least for the short term.

Stand your ground and do what's best for you and you only. You have no obligations to your employer above and beyond the legal requirements. You can be assured it's exactly the same on the other side and I suspect that is exactly how it is in your situation. However just be mindful to be polite in your dealings because NZ is a small country (as already noted by many here up-thread).

I wish the OP all the best.

nzkiwiman

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#2757005 9-Aug-2021 10:22

Currently in a holding pattern here; not knowing of my acceptance of the offer has been accepted or if I am actually still resigning.

I was actually handed back my resignation letter on Tuesday before I went on leave - when I got back to work today it was missing from where I placed it, leading me to wonder if they have actually decided to withdraw the offer and continue with the resignation - you know, thinking the worst without knowing the facts.

For those armchair lawyers - can they offer something and then take it away?

Just thinking out loud 🤣

frankv

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#2757017 9-Aug-2021 10:54

nzkiwiman:

For those armchair lawyers - can they offer something and then take it away?

A contract is formed when there is an offer *and* acceptance. If you haven't accepted their offer, then I guess they can withdraw it. IANAL. But it's moot... would you want to work for someone who offers you a position one day and then effectively fires you the next? If they were going to withdraw the offer, I'd expect they would discuss it with you and allow you to resubmit the resignation.

The letter disappearing is very fishy. If it was returned to you, I'd say it's your property, so taking it is theft.

I'd check it all out with your new mate the big boss.

eracode

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#2757044 9-Aug-2021 11:58

nzkiwiman:

Currently in a holding pattern here; not knowing of my acceptance of the offer has been accepted or if I am actually still resigning.

I was actually handed back my resignation letter on Tuesday before I went on leave - when I got back to work today it was missing from where I placed it, leading me to wonder if they have actually decided to withdraw the offer and continue with the resignation - you know, thinking the worst without knowing the facts.

For those armchair lawyers - can they offer something and then take it away?

Just thinking out loud 🤣

I guess you don't actually know who removed the letter - it could have been someone else rather than your boss/employer. Why did you accept it when they handed it back to you? By accepting it back, haven't you tacitly withdrawn your resignation?

Sometimes I just sit and think. Other times I just sit.

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