Burqa's in New Zealand

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#374425 30-Aug-2010 10:05

Mooseboy: I support the expression af a diverse range of cultures and beliefs in this country. I don't suppot the narrow minded view that one culture has the right to force others based on one point of view.

eracode:
billgates: I support a ban. It's an oppressive tool against women.

+1.
And, if we went to muslim country and dressed in a manner that was
against their custom, I'm sure you would know about it PDQ.

As far as I was aware New Zealand custom is to accept others?
And oppressing women? I know plenty of completely independant Muslim women who choose to wear head dress. The Qur'an teaches modesty, and there are many women who choose their own definition of what that means without any opression.

Totally aggree - the west seems to have this belielf that the Burqa is forced when I think you will find that it is chosen by many woman as it is part of their religion. Dont judge all Muslim's by the Teleban. Most are moderate and modern, check out the female numbers in government and university in Iran.

I also dont think we can compare with countries like France as they have a firm french culture that goes back hundreds (Thousands?) of years. NZ on the otherhand is a nation of migrants and our culture is a mix of all of the cultures that have made this country their home.

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josephhinvest

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#374426 30-Aug-2010 10:08

meesham:
NonprayingMantis: I support the burqa ban, but only as part of my support for a ban on any and all religions, religious symbols, religious culture, and iconography.

want to ban burqas? fine, but also ban jewish skullcaps, sikh turbans, christian crucifixes, cathlic rosaries, churches, mosques, synagogues, etc etc

Exactly. If they're making a conscious choice to wear it and it's of their own free will, who am I to say if they can wear it or not, and why just focus on Islam?

I'm an atheist and a skeptic, but I also believe in religious freedoms - something that separates New Zealand from some of the Islamic countries that forces you to conform to a set dress code based on religion.

+1
I am a Strong Atheist (7). I support freedom FROM religion, but also the freedom to practice whatever YOU believe.
Whether or not it is oppression, is impossible to tell. If people choose freely to wear specific items/clothing, then that is their choice, that is OK by me.

(I do not believe passport photos etc should be exempt for any specific groups, of course we can show respect by having female staff performing duties when appropriate etc)

You can't ban burqas the same way as you can't ban gang patches, hoodies, black t-shirts, white t-shirts, blue bandanas, red bandanas.... The list goes on and on. We are a free country, and you are free to choose.

Cheers,
Joseph

geekiegeek

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#374427 30-Aug-2010 10:09

meesham:
robjg63:
The burqa is sexist unless islamic men are expected to wear it as well - otherwise its just a tool to oppress women.

Catholocism only allows male ministers, should we ban the religion?

We had better ban nuns as well seeing as they cover thier heads - must be those oppressive priests :-)

cgrew

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#374431 30-Aug-2010 10:21

Yes I understand NZ being a free country and all but what about if we were to go over to their country and express our culture? I don't think that would go down to well.. I can't really see bikinis strutting around on their beaches much do you? New Zealand needs to hold on to the little bit of culture it has, I strongly believe this.

And what if a Burqa was to walk in to a NZ bank? That's a little intimidating don't you think? I know i wouldn't feel comfortable with it thats for sure. Gives the criminals an advantage to rob a store or even worse..

BurningBeard

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#374432 30-Aug-2010 10:22

I'm in two minds. I'm a bit of an anti-theist, but at the same time I believe in freedom and I'm not 100% cool with going around banning things because they don't fit in with our worldview.

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robjg63

3505 posts

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#374434 30-Aug-2010 10:28

I think the main problem I have (and most others) is that concealing the whole face seems very wrong. Wearing a cross or a hat of some kind - ok - you can still see the person.
Wear a scarf or a gang patch - or company logo - you still arent obscuring someones identity.

I have exactly the same problem with a person hiding inside a hoody.

The face is our window on the world - its how we recognise people - we look at the face to see if people are happy/sad/telling the truth etc. To completely conceal or hide a face seems furtive or controlling.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

cgrew

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#374437 30-Aug-2010 10:41

robjg63: I think the main problem I have (and most others) is that concealing the whole face seems very wrong. Wearing a cross or a hat of some kind - ok - you can still see the person.
Wear a scarf or a gang patch - or company logo - you still arent obscuring someones identity.

I have exactly the same problem with a person hiding inside a hoody.

The face is our window on the world - its how we recognise people - we look at the face to see if people are happy/sad/telling the truth etc. To completely conceal or hide a face seems furtive or controlling.

I totally agree, good point robjg63

meesham

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#374438 30-Aug-2010 10:41

cgrew: Yes I understand NZ being a free country and all but what about if we were to go over to their country and express our culture? I don't think that would go down to well.. I can't really see bikinis strutting around on their beaches much do you? New Zealand needs to hold on to the little bit of culture it has, I strongly believe this.

And what if a Burqa was to walk in to a NZ bank? That's a little intimidating don't you think? I know i wouldn't feel comfortable with it thats for sure. Gives the criminals an advantage to rob a store or even worse..

These countries have a restrictive policy on basic human freedoms, why become like them? I didn't realise that "our culture" was for everyone to conform.

Someone wearing a burqa walking into a bank is a different story, then it becomes a matter of security and I completely agree with you, the same as at passport control where a person's identity needs to be verified.

cgrew

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#374441 30-Aug-2010 10:54

meesham:
cgrew: Yes I understand NZ being a free country and all but what about if we were to go over to their country and express our culture? I don't think that would go down to well.. I can't really see bikinis strutting around on their beaches much do you? New Zealand needs to hold on to the little bit of culture it has, I strongly believe this.

And what if a Burqa was to walk in to a NZ bank? That's a little intimidating don't you think? I know i wouldn't feel comfortable with it thats for sure. Gives the criminals an advantage to rob a store or even worse..

These countries have a restrictive policy on basic human freedoms, why become like them? I didn't realise that "our culture" was for everyone to conform.

Someone wearing a burqa walking into a bank is a different story, then it becomes a matter of security and I completely agree with you, the same as at passport control where a person's identity needs to be verified.

And why do you think those countries have these restrictive policies put in place..? Why should NZ be multi-cultural? I don't see a problem with muslim people living here in NZ, but they can adjust to the way society is here in our country and vice versa if we were to go to their country.

As for them wearing a Burqa and walking in to a bank, it definitely does become a matter of security but it goes against their 'religion' to remove their Burqa's. So in this instance why have them at all?

meesham

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#374447 30-Aug-2010 11:04

cgrew:
And why do you think those countries have these restrictive policies put in place..? Why should NZ be multi-cultural? I don't see a problem with muslim people living here in NZ, but they can adjust to the way society is here in our country and vice versa if we were to go to their country.

As for them wearing a Burqa and walking in to a bank, it definitely does become a matter of security but it goes against their 'religion' to remove their Burqa's. So in this instance why have them at all?

In my opinion they have the policies in place to help control the population, for me personally I like to have a bit of freedom in my religion (or lack of religion) and my lifestyle which is why I choose to live in New Zealand. And last time I checked New Zealand already was multicultural, unless Maoris are originally European as well? (and "European" encompasses such a wide range of cultures).

They wear them because it's their choice to wear them, they want to follow their faith (atleast their version of it), but by choosing to do that there are some restrictions when it comes to security - a freedom of choice they have in NZ.

NonprayingMantis

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#374450 30-Aug-2010 11:20

cgrew: Yes I understand NZ being a free country and all but what about if we were to go over to their country and express our culture? I don't think that would go down to well.. I can't really see bikinis strutting around on their beaches much do you? New Zealand needs to hold on to the little bit of culture it has, I strongly believe this.

And what if a Burqa was to walk in to a NZ bank? That's a little intimidating don't you think? I know i wouldn't feel comfortable with it thats for sure. Gives the criminals an advantage to rob a store or even worse..

Depends whihc country you define as 'their country'. Muslims come from lots of different places.

If you go to Dubai, for example, you will find lots of westerners on the beaches wearing bikinis and similar swimwear. (normally burnt to a crisp too because the heat is ridiculous).

As for the bank, I partially agree. How many bank robberies have been committed in NZ by people disguising themselves with burqas? 1? 2? none?
What I mean by that it, is it a genuine problem, or just a percieved problem to give yourself an excuse to ban something that makes you personally feel uncomfortable?

cgrew

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#374451 30-Aug-2010 11:20

Interesting point meesham, I understand that NZ is a multi-cultural country but there are certain instances where their relegion may interfer with NZ's society, in this case it would be wearing Burqas in public.

How many Burqa wearing people do you know though? Because in actual fact they don't just wear them because they 'choose' to. From childhood they are forced to wear them, and would go as far as to say that they choose to wear them as a defence for their culture.

Below is a couple of quotes from their bible also known as the Koran

2) Muslim wives are to be totally dependent and obedient to their husbands.

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women, with what Allah (God) has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded. And those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

5) Childbearing Muslim women should be fully covered in public.

Qur'an 24:31 And say to the believing women that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions and do not display their adornment except what appears thereof. And let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms. And they should not display their adornment except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or guileless male servants, or the children who know not women's nakedness. And let them not strike their feet so that the adornment that they hide may be known. And turn to Allah all, O believers, so that you may be successful.

These are just some small example of how woman must be obedient to men but If you have a read of the Koran, throughtout their bible it quite clearly states that the woman must be unseen, hidden, obey and they pretty much are dictated to by men.

meesham

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#374455 30-Aug-2010 11:33

cgrew: Interesting point meesham, I understand that NZ is a multi-cultural country but there are certain instances where their relegion may interfer with NZ's society, in this case it would be wearing Burqas in public.

How many Burqa wearing people do you know though? Because in actual fact they don't just wear them because they 'choose' to. From childhood they are forced to wear them, and would go as far as to say that they choose to wear them in their cultures defence.

Below is a quote from their bible or Koran

2) Muslim wives are to be totally dependent and obedient to their husbands.

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women, with what Allah (God) has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded. And those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

This is just one small example of our woman must be obedient to men but If you have a read of the Koran, throughtout their bible it quite clearly states that the woman must be unseen, hidden, obey and thay are pretty much dictated to by men.

And the government banning someone wearing a burqa is directly interfering with a person's freedom of religion.

I know quite a few muslim women (although I don't keep in touch with a lot of them anymore since leaving the UK), none of them choose to wear a burqa. I agree with you that some women are forced into it, and in a free country they should have some way to get out of the oppression. Isn't forcing them to not wear it another kind of oppression?

Again I'm atheist so you're preaching to the choir (tee-hee) about stupid passages in bibles, all the bibles and religions contain things that aren't relevant to modern society - personally I believe that people should just be good to one another and live their life.

My main point is that banning burqas is a direct affront to personal freedoms.

NonprayingMantis

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#374456 30-Aug-2010 11:33

cgrew: Interesting point meesham, I understand that NZ is a multi-cultural country but there are certain instances where their relegion may interfer with NZ's society, in this case it would be wearing Burqas in public.

How many Burqa wearing people do you know though? Because in actual fact they don't just wear them because they 'choose' to. From childhood they are forced to wear them, and would go as far as to say that they choose to wear them as a defence for their culture.

Below is a couple of quotes from their bible also known as the Koran

2) Muslim wives are to be totally dependent and obedient to their husbands.

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women, with what Allah (God) has made some of them to excel others and with what they spend out of their wealth. So the good women are obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded. And those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the beds and chastise them. So if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

5) Childbearing Muslim women should be fully covered in public.

Qur'an 24:31 And say to the believing women that they lower their gaze and restrain their sexual passions and do not display their adornment except what appears thereof. And let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms. And they should not display their adornment except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or guileless male servants, or the children who know not women's nakedness. And let them not strike their feet so that the adornment that they hide may be known. And turn to Allah all, O believers, so that you may be successful.

These are just some small example of how woman must be obedient to men but If you have a read of the Koran, throughtout their bible it quite clearly states that the woman must be unseen, hidden, obey and they are pretty much dictated to by men.

Sounds an awful lot like another religion that is pretty popular over here. Christianity.

Linuxluver

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#374459 30-Aug-2010 11:43

Generally, I say wear what you want, but be prepared for people to judge you for it.

But hiding one's face is a separate matter -whether it's a burqa or a balaclava or Batman.

In order to main peace and public order, hiding one's face should be forbidden in banks, courts and at public events. I'd be wary of a gang of people turning up at any public function other than a costume party with the faces hidden....and I odn't generally go to costume parties if I don't know who will be attending.

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