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cgrew
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  #375643 2-Sep-2010 10:56
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With your example in relation to the vegetarian which was a good one I might add, I guess people can't honestly claim they are one but they aren't exactly going to claim they are a half-vegetarian are they?? Similarly I don't call my brother and sister my half bro and sis, we all come from the same mother - so we have all just called each other brother and sister. Is that necessarily a bad thing to do? What I'm trying to point out is yeah sure people claim they are one thing to another but I guess ultimately they are just trying to benefit their lifestyle regardless of whether or not they are doing it 'properly' or 'honestly'.

I'm not sure if that was a good example but I'm sure you get the gist of what I ment..

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Jaxson
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  #375655 2-Sep-2010 11:16
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cgrew: I'm not sure if that was a good example but I'm sure you get the gist of what I ment..
I get you and agree.  Nothing is black and white.  We all live our lives doing what we hope is best and shouldn't have to change to fit societies labels either. 

With regards the burqa, what I was getting at was:
Some people would be ok with still being that religion but understanding that they weren't allowed to wear that garment in certain countries.
However, other people would not be able to accept the removal of a central part of their religion as easily as that.

The other part being telling people they can't wear it is just as controlling as telling people they must wear it.

cgrew
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  #375690 2-Sep-2010 12:04
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Jaxson:
cgrew: I'm not sure if that was a good example but I'm sure you get the gist of what I ment..
I get you and agree.  Nothing is black and white.  We all live our lives doing what we hope is best and shouldn't have to change to fit societies labels either. 


The other part being telling people they can't wear it is just as controlling as telling people they must wear it.


I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.




bazzer
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  #375737 2-Sep-2010 13:30
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cgrew: I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.

I could say the same about you, seems you've been brainwashed with anti-Muslim sentiments.  There are plenty of "normal" Muslims out there, they just tend to all get tarred with the same "terrorist" brush.

meesham
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  #375745 2-Sep-2010 13:47
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cgrew:
I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.


I'm of the opinion that they're all as bad as one another, it's just some of the more well known big terrorist acts lately have been by Muslims. Hitler was a Christian (which demonination is up for debate), the Ku Klux Klan are Protestant and it's the Christian "pro-lifers" who kill abortion doctors in the US (killing in the name of life, wow...)



cgrew
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  #375758 2-Sep-2010 14:20
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bazzer:
cgrew:  some aspects of it that is..

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.

I could say the same about you, seems you've been brainwashed with anti-Muslim sentiments.  There are plenty of "normal" Muslims out there, they just tend to all get tarred with the same "terrorist" brush.


You could say that about me.. but your wrong bazzer - as per above I simply said some aspects of it that is.. Meaning some parts of Muslim religion are like this not all of them?

Perhaps you could read my post abit better next time?

Linuxluver
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  #375759 2-Sep-2010 14:23
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cgrew:
I'm not disagreeing with you, I was only stating what I often hear argued from both Muslims and Christains. Also considering too, despite what you may believe - this arguement between both religions has been going on for thosounds of years..


True...(but for the "thousands" part...)

Which is vaguely sad in a way...that such pointless debates should go on for so long...... 




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Linuxluver
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  #375764 2-Sep-2010 14:28
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bazzer:
cgrew: I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.

I could say the same about you, seems you've been brainwashed with anti-Muslim sentiments.  There are plenty of "normal" Muslims out there, they just tend to all get tarred with the same "terrorist" brush.


The religion is irrelevant, in a way, as the core issues in dispute are mainly political and cultural....not religious.

Some of the 9/11 jet-bombers were nominally Muslims....but they didn't go to a Mosque or pray much. They were outraged by the actions of the US with respect to the group they idenitify with Arabs and muslims....but not for religious reasons. For political reasons related to Israel, Bosnia and a long list of other places and times where the US, in particular, has behaved like an ignorant, selfish arse and expected to get away with it forever.

The so-called "Islamic terrorists" are often angry people driven to extreme acts by a sense of powerlessness and injustice - as they see it ....who happen to be Muslims.  Maybe they draw strength from their beliefs, but their acts are political with political causes. 

 




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cgrew
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  #375775 2-Sep-2010 14:42
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Linuxluver:
bazzer:
cgrew: I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.

I could say the same about you, seems you've been brainwashed with anti-Muslim sentiments.  There are plenty of "normal" Muslims out there, they just tend to all get tarred with the same "terrorist" brush.


but their acts are political with political causes. 

 


True - would you agree that the origin to their act would be in relation to their religion?

In other words, they are 'brainwashed' at an early age making them prominent to blowing themselves up easily as opposed to other religious political extremists.

All this malarkey about sixty virgins as a gift straight from Allah himself - the ultimate paradise experience..

cgrew
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  #375779 2-Sep-2010 14:47
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Yes I agree with you Linuxluver - and the fact that if this 'pointless' debate were to be told by you or I to 'them' i.e. Muslims & Christians.. Well put it bluntly - we'd be in a war of our own..

Jaxson
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  #375791 2-Sep-2010 15:00
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cgrew: 'brainwashed' at an early age

This component I find pretty repugnant to be honest, and actually I find this fairly common to all religions.  That and collecting followers when they are at traumatic times in their lives when they are most vulnerable.

cgrew: All this malarkey about sixty virgins as a gift straight from Allah himself - the ultimate paradise experience..
Actually this sounds pretty damn good to me.

meesham
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  #375793 2-Sep-2010 15:04
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Jaxson:
cgrew: All this malarkey about sixty virgins as a gift straight from Allah himself - the ultimate paradise experience..
Actually this sounds pretty damn good to me.


I'd rather have 60 easy girls, I'd even settle for only 59 of them.

I don't see how the Christian version of the afterlife is any more believable. It's religion promising something in the hope of keeping people in line with their directions and teachings and the brilliant thing about it is they never actually have to deliver.

Linuxluver
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  #375797 2-Sep-2010 15:16
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cgrew:
Linuxluver:
bazzer:
cgrew: I agree with you in that sense but you have to admit in relation to their religion, in my honest opinion I classify Muslim religion as extreme compared to others, some aspects of it that is.. Just look at their suicide bombers..?

I will leave it at that, no doubt someone will try claim that Christianity is the same but I would tend to disagree.. Muslim's always seem to brainwash their people severely especially at a very young age..

It's a shame really.

I could say the same about you, seems you've been brainwashed with anti-Muslim sentiments.  There are plenty of "normal" Muslims out there, they just tend to all get tarred with the same "terrorist" brush.


but their acts are political with political causes. 

 


True - would you agree that the origin to their act would be in relation to their religion?

In other words, they are 'brainwashed' at an early age making them prominent to blowing themselves up easily as opposed to other religious political extremists.

All this malarkey about sixty virgins as a gift straight from Allah himself - the ultimate paradise experience..


I wouldn't want to generalise about over a billion people.  The vast majority of them may have views, but they don't kill anyone over it. The "terrorists" are a vanishingly small fraction of that huge number of people. Muslims are genuinely and sincerely peaceful. Within that broad category are cultural and ethnic groups who believe stuff that has nothing to do with Islam....like wearing burqas and forbidding women to be educated or drive cars....and so on.

It hasn't helped that the more extreme Wahabi sect of Islam is governing Saudi Arabia and we fund them every time we buy petrol. They are not representative of all Muslims or even most. But they have vast wealth and thus vast influence. Plus the issue of Israel has been a major source of anger in that whole region. The British completely cocked it up from the Balfour Declaration onward, and finally bailed out in 1948, overwhelmed by the consequences of their many mistakes......having created an incredible mess we are all still paying for. 

The sources of all this are not religious. They are political. It's just that Islam is a convenient "glue" to bind these peoples together...and had been one of the very few alternate channels for political expression in most of these dictator-governed countries. 

In a region full of corrupt, ruthless, Western-backed dictators Islam became the effective opposition to that paradigm...and the mixing of politics and religion was enforced, in part, by Western support for the people these "extremists" came to regard as their secular oppressors...with Islam being the solution. Given no other solution was allowed expression by the dictators (or the clerics).....what else could one expect? 

Bush's handling of 9/11 was more or less what Bin Laden predicted...and Bush did the US enormous harm by doing what he did and invading Iraq....and proving Bin Laden to be correct...as Iraq had nothing whatever to do with 9/11. It was a massive validation the extremist case against America as corrupt and in need of some rough justice.  You'd almost think Bush must be an Al Qaeda mole as he followed their script perfectly. 

So was it religious? Only by coincidence and perhaps convenience from an organisational perspective....but there isn't much in it otherwise. 






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Jaxson
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  #375798 2-Sep-2010 15:20
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meesham: I'd rather have 60 easy girls, I'd even settle for only 59 of them.

Ok if we're gonna keep improving on this, then I'm gonna have to put my foot down on ensuring they are attractive too.

cgrew
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  #375800 2-Sep-2010 15:20
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Jaxson:
cgrew: 'brainwashed' at an early age

This component I find pretty repugnant to be honest, and actually I find this fairly common to all religions.  That and collecting followers when they are at traumatic times in their lives when they are most vulnerable.

cgrew: All this malarkey about sixty virgins as a gift straight from Allah himself - the ultimate paradise experience..
Actually this sounds pretty damn good to me.


Yeah your right it is pretty disgusting to be honest..

Haha ya think? Well even one virgin would do me just fine, I certainly wouldn't need 60? lol that's abit extreme.

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