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  #398913 1-Nov-2010 23:40
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There is just as great a chance of a poor upbringing having a mum and a dad under the same roof as there is with either 2 mums or 2 dads.

As for the suggestion that it will increase the risk of teasing during school years then this is also not a reasonable argument. Almost everyone gets teased during their childhood for one thing or another. Some are lucky and don't get picked on at all. If you're going to get picked on then you're going to get picked on. Whether it's about weight, skin colour, wealth, the sound of your voice, your intelligence or whether you have gay parents - teasing has the same effect regardless of the reason.

Using any arguments that having same-sex parents is bad for the development of children is rubbish. There is no reasonable proof out there of this. Having either 2 mums, 2 dads or 1 of each in your everyday upbringing has no effect on your development as a human being in society.

I'd love to hear how you think children are likely to turn out having been brought up with gay parents - and then I'll tell you the truth...

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  #398931 2-Nov-2010 01:14
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For those who do not want to read this whole thing skip to the last two paragraphs as that sums it all up.

Well 3 pages in and this has been pretty damned ridiculous honestly.

I would like to firstly point out that adoption can be done at any age so in some cases the child in question can have input into this whereas a lot of the early thread comments would lead you to believe that a child never has a say in who their parents are. 

Anyway on one hand we've got someone whose been in a same sex relationship for over 20 yrs and says they think bigoted comments aren't welcome. Just wondering is it bigoted comments or just comments you don't agree with as this is a forum for discussion everyone can take a active part. I do believe the OP asked the question about why the laws regarding same sex relationships prevent adoption. The OP did not say they wanted only to hear from people in same sex relationships so your comment about bigotry itself is pretty much the same narrow mindedness your trying to discorage.

On another side we've got people talking about financial support and stability as being a good guideline to establish what could make a suitable couple for adoption. That's just utter rubbish as it basically implies that only the rich are worthy of being parents.

We've also got people saying that the benefit laws are setup to help defacto people over married people and their decision to work and or not work. This too is rubbish the laws are written and applied the same way for both. If you are a couple and one person decides to quit their job they would not be able to get welfare as voluntary redundancy is a 13 week stand down for welfare assistance. Most likely though you would possibly qualify for assistance in regards to Working For Families from IRD. Look at what that's called that's not saying working for married families or working for defacto families, gay or straight families. That one basically is all about how many hours are worked for either a single parent family or two parent family and the overall income they make are the deciding factors for this assistance.

Also we have got views that follow along the line of religion and man and women being the right way and how it should be done. Personally i am a Christian however i do not go to church currently as have no real desire to do so. Problem with the religous view point is that the bible actually contradicts itself. First it says that gay relationships are wrong but then we move to the new testament all about Jesus and what he did for us on the cross. That's all about acceptance and forgiveness which is where it all turns to custard for the religous view old testament a lot of things are wrong as seen in the eyes of god. Then the new testament is all about how Jesus tells us we are to get over those things and move on.

I also read a comment about Brian Tamaki now he's a funny character himself his church preaches and teaches the bible to a tee and for some reason no one seems to like that oh no a minister has quoted the bible and actually stated God said Homosexuality is wrong. Have a look around at most churches these days you won't find many that will openly have sermons in regards to the topic of homosexuality at all yet you will likely find a unsaid acceptance of those members of the church who are this way inclined. Talk to the minister though and your likely to get the well god said we should forgive or we just brush over the topic lightly as not to offend the church goers.

Now to the part where people discussed the welfare state and the low rate of actual adoption in NZ. Is it such a horrible thought to have a system in place where just because a couple separate or are not in a family unit (meaning two parents of any gender or sexual preference) should be given the opportunity to look after their own children. I don't think thats a bad thing of course those who feel financial status and stability are a must for a good family would be most likely to disagree on that. There is of course many who abuse the system.

To the OP's question When will NZ get equal rights for all citizens??? Quite simply put the correct answer is the one we don't want to hear or believe and that is never. You quoted some countries that don't discriminate against same sex relationships just look at the laws yeah sure they may not discriminate legislatively but discrimination exists all over the place NZ is quite terrible at it.

A simple example of equal rights gone wrong in NZ is the governments equal opportunity employer policy. How can we have a equal opportunities when we have to follow the guidelines of The Treaty of Waitangi???

Then there is the equal laws regarding both parents rights as parents. These are written as being the same for both the mother and the father but are they applied that way in a court of law??? Not at all and if and when it does happen it is a rare occurance. Of course though a lot of solo mothers would tell you plainly that the father of their children were in the wrong or don't want anything to do with their children and sadly a lot of the time it is true but not all the time.

Take me for example it took several weeks of my daughter being in CYFS care and a protection order to be dropped before i could even entertain the thought of being given interim custody of my daughter until such time as CYFS felt my exwife was in a place where she could have her children returned to her care. She left me for a convicted murderer (way to boost a guys morale) who then beat her and threatened to kill her before being recalled to prison. She asked for me to take my daughter as CYFS were going to otherwise strangely enough i was for sure but was too slow.

This led to my daughter spending about 4 - 6 weeks with a CYFS carer and my first conversation with the social worker on the case was "I heard you tried to get your daughter before we took her why did you do that???". Simple answer was i was looking after the best interest of my daughter I was asked by her mother to get her out of a dangerous situation and as her father that was my role to protect her to the best of my ability.

After all was said and done i had my girl for 6 months before one week i got a phone call advising that my ex had passed her drug and alcohol evaluations through CYFS (by the way these evaluations were strictly verbal no drug tests or blood samples were taken or required) and that I had to return her to her mother the following weekend. How is that fair and equal it's not. It only took a week of being back with her mother before my daughter advised she wanted to live me fulltime and has been doing so ever since (approx 6 or 7 years now).

Do i fit the bill of what some here would say is a fit parent hell no for a start i'm a single guy ooo now that can't be a great environment for a growing girl can it??? I have always tried to do what is right by my children and always will. Have I succeeded at this at all times not at all. Does that make me a unfit parent no just makes me human and for any hypocrates who would dare to say otherwise look in the mirror we are all human and we all makes mistakes at times.

The ideal parent is one that will always strive to be the best they can with the hand they are dealt to them. Show love and caring at and bring them up to know the difference between wrong and right (this is always a matter of an indiviuals interpretation). It has nothing to do with age, race, gender, single or in a relationship, gay or straight.

Just remember we are all different and have all been bought up differently. We are all entitled to a view or an opinion and have a right to voice that. Some of the people on here need to remember that and realise just because someone has a different view than you it doesn't necessarily make your right and them wrong.

 
 
 
 


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  #398934 2-Nov-2010 01:41
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Forgot to add that there is plenty of alternatives to (and different types of) adoption. There are some situations where like some have mentioned they have a input into who they child ends up getting adopted by. There are those that never want to be contacted once the adoption process is complete and there are also those where the child grows up with their adoptive parents knowing they are just that and still have a relationship with the natural parents.

It is not always done through the courts and or the adoption process. For some cultures it literally can just be as simple as dropping the kid/s off with a relative and that's that.

Surrogacy is also a option however there are differing laws worldwide in regards to that.

Probably should put a disclaimer in here too for this post and my above post as these thoughts, views and comments are solely my own and are not to be viewed as having any relevance to my what my employers views may or may not be.

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  #399122 2-Nov-2010 14:16
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if you want to get into the "equality" argument with regards to adoption, how about considering the child custody argument too. when a hetero couple splits and there are children involved, the mother is odds-on favourite for custody given the 'nurturing nature' etc etc.

as for a gay couple wanting 'marraige' - if a civil union and a marraige had exactly the same rights, would you still care about becoming 'married' specifically?

i think that "equal rights for all citizens" is somewhat naive and a pipe dream. there is always going to be bias in some areas. pick your battles.




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  #399126 2-Nov-2010 14:21
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Personally, I think marriage is overrated these days... It is more on ceremonial value than it seems. Civil union is more appropriate/sufficiently suitable to recognise two people's life in unity.

Heck you could just registered as married/civilised (civil-united?) and without too much fuss.




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  #399128 2-Nov-2010 14:25
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Canada has no laws against gay people what so every, same with South Africa! South Africa has more rights than our country! Why doesn't our government do something? This is so unfair.


I would not be using South Africa as a beacon. SA may allow same sex marriages, yet they have some very racist policies against its people like AA, BEE etc. Hardly any country in the world recongnises gay marriage, in fact in most countries of the world being gay is considered illegal, the consequences are high. Death, life in prison etc..

I think NZ, AUS etc is very lenient with its laws already. Unfair is what happens in most countries where being gay is considered illegal.


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  #399129 2-Nov-2010 14:25
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chiefie: Personally, I think marriage is overrated these days... It is more on ceremonial value than it seems. Civil union is more appropriate/sufficiently suitable to recognise two people's life in unity.


And yet, the topic of this thread (from the OP) states that it is NOT enough

 
 
 
 


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  #399157 2-Nov-2010 15:25
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bcourtney:
chiefie: Personally, I think marriage is overrated these days... It is more on ceremonial value than it seems. Civil union is more appropriate/sufficiently suitable to recognise two people's life in unity.

And yet, the topic of this thread (from the OP) states that it is NOT enough


In fairness, all he said is that there is inequality (which I don't think any reasonable person can disagree with) and used adoption as an example.

I don't believe he realised that adoption is a poor example since that ancient 50-odd year old law discriminates against everyone who doesn't have an ancient 1950's style marriage. As to marriage, well it is still discrimination. A heterosexual couple can choose to marry or have a civil union. A gay or lesbian couple don't get that choice.



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  #399171 2-Nov-2010 15:36
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bcourtney:
chiefie: Personally, I think marriage is overrated these days... It is more on ceremonial value than it seems. Civil union is more appropriate/sufficiently suitable to recognise two people's life in unity.


And yet, the topic of this thread (from the OP) states that it is NOT enough


So whats the big deal then? If marriage and civil union are the same then why not either ban marriage for all or make marriage legal for EVERYONE. Simple as that 




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  #399174 2-Nov-2010 15:41
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BraaiGuy: 

I think NZ, AUS etc is very lenient with its laws already. Unfair is what happens in most countries where being gay is considered illegal.



We're lenient with our laws? Do you think we should be saying "oh thank you mr law maker for allowing us to be who we are without the risk of being thrown in jail or killed because we prefer carrots to rug." Which would you rather say when introducing your partner, "he/she is my husband/wife" or "he/she is my life partner" 




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  #399181 2-Nov-2010 15:46
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Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my reply.

@chiefie indicated that marriage is overrated and that civil union is enough today. I was pointing out that in the case of adoption (the example given by the OP) civil union between 2 same-sex people is not sufficient enough to allow for said adoption. Hence the inequality.

Apologies to @Elpie and @tardtasticx if I wasn't clear. I think you'll see from my earlier response to this discussion which side of the coin I sit on with regards to this argument



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  #399186 2-Nov-2010 15:53
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bcourtney: Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my reply.

@chiefie indicated that marriage is overrated and that civil union is enough today. I was pointing out that in the case of adoption (the example given by the OP) civil union between 2 same-sex people is not sufficient enough to allow for said adoption. Hence the inequality.

Apologies to @Elpie and @tardtasticx if I wasn't clear. I think you'll see from my earlier response to this discussion which side of the coin I sit on with regards to this argument


Sorry my bad, that wasnt meant to be an angry tone if thats how it came off. I just used that to kind of push the argument along sorta.




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  #399192 2-Nov-2010 15:57
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tardtasticx:
BraaiGuy: 

I think NZ, AUS etc is very lenient with its laws already. Unfair is what happens in most countries where being gay is considered illegal.



We're lenient with our laws? Do you think we should be saying "oh thank you mr law maker for allowing us to be who we are without the risk of being thrown in jail or killed because we prefer carrots to rug." Which would you rather say when introducing your partner, "he/she is my husband/wife" or "he/she is my life partner" 


In a word (and my opinion), yes.

To be honest I am thankful that we live in a country that is more open than others.  We have rules and laws that protect all people living in NZ.

Back to the original post, is the bigger issue marriage or child adoption?  As I have mentioned earlier, there is nothing stopping a person adopting a child in NZ.  As long as their meet the requirements of the state (income, criminal record, fines, etc).

Marriage between two gay people will come, it will just take time for people to change their views and then the laws.


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  #399195 2-Nov-2010 16:05
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Apologies to @Elpie and @tardtasticx if I wasn't clear. I think you'll see from my earlier response to this discussion which side of the coin I sit on with regards to this argument


No need to apologise - if I had skimmed a little slower I would have twigged Sealed

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  #399196 2-Nov-2010 16:05
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tardtasticx:
BraaiGuy: 

I think NZ, AUS etc is very lenient with its laws already. Unfair is what happens in most countries where being gay is considered illegal.



We're lenient with our laws? Do you think we should be saying "oh thank you mr law maker for allowing us to be who we are without the risk of being thrown in jail or killed because we prefer carrots to rug." Which would you rather say when introducing your partner, "he/she is my husband/wife" or "he/she is my life partner" 


You complaining about something so small. Life partner introduction vs wife/husband introduction. Whats the hype? Who cares? Actually when I introduce my wife to people I use her first name. People just know she is my wife. Very rarely do I say hello meet my wife LOL. It sounds so old school.

That said, if I met somebody new and he introduced me to his lifelong partner as his husband it would sound odd. In fact I may even struggle to keep the smile off my face. I think its just more accepted to use the term life partner when referring to your gay partner.




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