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  #399932 4-Nov-2010 00:27
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oh, and for the record - i'm not against either gay marraige, or gay adoption.




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  #399933 4-Nov-2010 00:29
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Regs:
bcourtney:
Plain and simple - incest is illegal in this country. Homosexuality isn't. 


but homosexuality *used* to be illegal, until they changed the laws.  gay marraige is not legal, but we're asking for it to be so.  the 'simple' arguement suddenly becomes more complex..


The argument here is that there needs to be equal rights for NZ citizens at present. Those that are breaking the law are not afforded all the same rights as those of us that are living within current laws.

If you want to argue this point for equal rights for incestuous couples in some future when incest is legal then fair enough, but right now there is no extra complexity to this argument. 

 
 
 
 


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  #399940 4-Nov-2010 01:42
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How would you feel if you fancied your sister, when everyone is telling you it's wrong and unnatural? It'd feel a bit unfair I suppose. Sound familiar? Isn't it true that you don't choose who you fall in love with?

I don't consider myself a bigot. As I mentioned earlier, I don't really understand why a gay couple would want to get "married", per se, but if they want to I'm all for it. I can still see the similarities in the comparison.

I guess the incest thing is usually brought up so people go "Yuck! We can't allow that, so we can't allow gays!" but personally, I don't have a particular problem with incest either. Again, I don't get it, but if it's your thing and it's consensual, what's the problem? I'd like to think these couples would be sensible enough to think very carefully before having kids, but other than that, so what?

All the homosexuals out there, what are your views on incest? Should that be legalised and should they also get equal rights? If not, why not? Then read your response but picture yourself 30 years ago and swap incest for homosexuality.

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  #399996 4-Nov-2010 09:23
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Think you really have to define what you mean by the term
'equal rights'
Do men and women in our society have equal rights?

Do different cultures have equal rights?

Do different religions have equal rights?


They're all out there in our society establishing their own boundaries for their communities, cultures, ethnicities and religions....

The answer of course is NO. Theres a lot of things in whole 'rights' debate that require more considered reflection and legislation



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  #400009 4-Nov-2010 09:48
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I pay more tax than my neighbor.

This is not equal.


Boo!!


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  #400013 4-Nov-2010 09:51
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wreck90: I pay more tax than my neighbor.

This is not equal.


Boo!!



Which of course means you earn more money than your neighbour!

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  #400027 4-Nov-2010 10:09
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I don't think anyone is suggesting we live in a communist society, but when you are afforded certain rights and they are not equal rights to another person in the same situation, just of a different sexuality it makes a farce of the whole issue! Then being told that you should be happy you have been given those rights (as if you are a second rate citizen) and you shouldn't expect more, but it may happen in the future if you wait long enough, this is frustrating and is not equality!

To take the marriage/civil union issue, it's not a case of them basically being the same in all but name, it's the fact that because of sexuality you are told that you are not allowed to marry but you can have a civil union, but a opposite sex couple can have the choice. I'd be happy for marriage to be removed as a choice so everyone could just have a civil union and that would be fair and equal in this issue. I can't imagine the people who are afforded the right to choose being too happy about that though!

 
 
 
 


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  #400029 4-Nov-2010 10:11
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Teeps:
wreck90: I pay more tax than my neighbor.

This is not equal.


Boo!!



Which of course means you earn more money than your neighbour!

But the tax paid is more than proportionately higher.  Wouldn't it be fair if we all paid the same flat rate, e.g. 20%? Apparently, "rich" people can afford to pay proportionately more tax.

I think some people were not taught growing up that life is not "fair".  Of course, we live in a country where you're allowed to push for change, so good luck to all of the put upon minorities (and majorities!) out there!

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  #400031 4-Nov-2010 10:19
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Teeps: I don't think anyone is suggesting we live in a communist society, but when you are afforded certain rights and they are not equal rights to another person in the same situation, just of a different sexuality it makes a farce of the whole issue! Then being told that you should be happy you have been given those rights (as if you are a second rate citizen) and you shouldn't expect more, but it may happen in the future if you wait long enough, this is frustrating and is not equality!

To take the marriage/civil union issue, it's not a case of them basically being the same in all but name, it's the fact that because of sexuality you are told that you are not allowed to marry but you can have a civil union, but a opposite sex couple can have the choice. I'd be happy for marriage to be removed as a choice so everyone could just have a civil union and that would be fair and equal in this issue. I can't imagine the people who are afforded the right to choose being too happy about that though!

Don't you think it's just because marriage is an old, traditional, institution?  It's dying a slow death anyway.  One day, no one will get a choice.  Then will you be happy?

I don't really see marriage as a human right anyway.  As mentioned already there are large groups of people that are prohibited from marriage.  Why do we discriminate based on age, consanguinity, marital status, etc...

How does taking away something from someone else make you feel better about yourself?  That seems to go against the happy vibe you're advocating.  There are plenty of things I am unable to take part in simply because of how I am, but that doesn't seem to bother you.  Is this thread really about equal rights for all, or simply equal rights for "you"?

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  #400039 4-Nov-2010 10:27
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bazzer:
Teeps:
wreck90: I pay more tax than my neighbor.

This is not equal.


Boo!!



Which of course means you earn more money than your neighbour!

But the tax paid is more than proportionately higher.??Wouldn't it be fair if we all paid the same flat rate, e.g. 20%? Apparently, "rich" people can afford to pay proportionately more tax.

I think some people were not taught growing up that life is not "fair".? Of course, we live in a country where you're allowed to push for change, so good luck to all of the put upon minorities (and majorities!) out there!


But for the equivalent amount you earn you do pay the same amount of tax, you just pay a higher rate of tax when you break certain thresholds. That seems pretty fair.

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  #400045 4-Nov-2010 10:33
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bazzer:
Teeps: I don't think anyone is suggesting we live in a communist society, but when you are afforded certain rights and they are not equal rights to another person in the same situation, just of a different sexuality it makes a farce of the whole issue! Then being told that you should be happy you have been given those rights (as if you are a second rate citizen) and you shouldn't expect more, but it may happen in the future if you wait long enough, this is frustrating and is not equality!

To take the marriage/civil union issue, it's not a case of them basically being the same in all but name, it's the fact that because of sexuality you are told that you are not allowed to marry but you can have a civil union, but a opposite sex couple can have the choice. I'd be happy for marriage to be removed as a choice so everyone could just have a civil union and that would be fair and equal in this issue. I can't imagine the people who are afforded the right to choose being too happy about that though!

Don't you think it's just because marriage is an old, traditional, institution?? It's dying a slow death anyway.? One day, no one will get a choice.? Then will you be happy?

I don't really see marriage as a human right anyway.? As mentioned already there are large groups of people that are prohibited from marriage.? Why do we discriminate based on age, consanguinity, marital status, etc...

How does taking away something from someone else make you feel better about yourself?? That seems to go against the happy vibe you're advocating.? There are plenty of things I am unable to take part in simply because of how I am, but that doesn't seem to bother you.? Is this thread really about equal rights for all, or simply equal rights for "you"?


Not at all, but at least now you understand that taking a right away from you upsets you and you can't see why that should happen, but somehow you can't understand that as a gay man (even though personally I have a civil union with my partner and am perfectly happy and have no desire for that to be a marriage instead) I do not have the CHOICE.

If you believe same sex couples should not be allowed to marry as a civil partnership is perfectly good enough why can't you see that would also be good enough for a couple of the opposite sex and they have no need for marriage either.

I am not looking for equal rights just for me at all, it's just your blinkered view that sees it like that.

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  #400046 4-Nov-2010 10:35
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Teeps: But for the equivalent amount you earn you do pay the same amount of tax, you just pay a higher rate of tax when you break certain thresholds. That seems pretty fair.

What is fair about taxing dollars earned above $70K at 33% compared to 10.5% under $14K?  How are those dollars earned any different, why should they be taxed differently?

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  #400051 4-Nov-2010 10:45
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All New Zealanders have equal rights - Yea Right.

http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/no-deposit-home-loans-maori-only/1071/38690

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  #400052 4-Nov-2010 10:48
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bazzer:
Teeps: But for the equivalent amount you earn you do pay the same amount of tax, you just pay a higher rate of tax when you break certain thresholds. That seems pretty fair.

What is fair about taxing dollars earned above $70K at 33% compared to 10.5% under $14K?? How are those dollars earned any different, why should they be taxed differently?


But you also pay tax at 10.5% for your earnings under $14k too.

Would you prefer to pay let's say 25% on ALL of your earnings instead of having different thresholds? I'm pretty certain you'd find you'd be paying more if you did.

To go back to the equality issue, how would you feel if the government decided that as same sex couples (as they have no children) have less impact on society so their taxes should reflect this and they should not have to pay towards schools etc. Would that feel fair to you?

I'm happy to pay towards society and happy that my taxes are equal to the person next to me whatever their sexuality is as that's how I believe it to be fair and equal.

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  #400055 4-Nov-2010 10:52
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Teeps: Not at all, but at least now you understand that taking a right away from you upsets you and you can't see why that should happen, but somehow you can't understand that as a gay man (even though personally I have a civil union with my partner and am perfectly happy and have no desire for that to be a marriage instead) I do not have the CHOICE.

If you believe same sex couples should not be allowed to marry as a civil partnership is perfectly good   enough why can't you see that would also be good enough for a couple of the opposite sex and they have no need for marriage either.

I am not looking for equal rights just for me at all, it's just your blinkered view that sees it like that.

Have you read my posts at all?  I'm not anti-gay marriage or even pro-marriage in the slightest.  If I had to vote to give gays marriage or remove marriage altogether, I'd probably flip a coin.  I actually stated that I would have been happy to have a civil union.

Marriage as we know it is essentially an institute of the church, it just happened to be a handy method for our increasing secular governments to define a relationship.  We've moved beyond that now, but understandably it still lingers on.  Frankly, you're right, maybe the government should get rid of "marriage" and stick to civil unions, a legal bond between people.  I should still expect the church to bestow marriages  (I imagine this would also confer a civil union) on couples that they see fit to and I doubt that would include gays in the short term, but then you can't make God accept homosexuality by protests and petitions. Churches are almost by definition discriminatory, can I get married in a synagogue if I don't believe in God?  Is that still an equality, or do you expect churches to also be obliged to recognise your relationship?

My view is less blinkered than you, I feel.  So, you believe in equal rights for incestuous couples, polygamists, etc?  It's a serious question, if they do not deserve the right to marry, why not?  I understand these practices are currently illegal, but isn't that, liek homosexuality once was, simply due to social convention?  What's wrong with having two wives?

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