Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
toejam316
1312 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2791501 7-Oct-2021 20:49
Send private message

jmosen: Obviously, conducting planned maintenance at 1 AM is going to bother far fewer people than doing it at 1 PM. But it’s still discourteous and disruptive to run planned maintenance and not have notice of it passed onto the consumer, probably by Chorus informing the RSPs and the RSPs using all possible communications channels to let customers know.

I ended up doing the usual troubleshooting steps because I wasn’t expecting an outage.

Vocus also lost me as a customer today. There’ve been a few issues with them of late including some international speed issues earlier in the week. So in the absence of information to the contrary, I assumed they were experiencing more problems. Had I known it was a general Chorus thing, I wouldn’t have made the jump. Speculation fills a vacuum and it never ceases to amaze me how communications companies are some of the worst at actually communicating.
Knowingly taking the connection down and not saying somehting in advance isn’t acceptable.

 

If you've ever had to contact customers proactively regarding something like this, you'd understand that it's simply not feasible.

 

At my previous job with a small WISP, I worked for a company with less than 1000 customers at the time. Getting information to customers was simply painful, with out of date contact information, rejecting phone calls, wild accusations and all sorts of insanity to notify of outages, overdue bills, etc.

 

Unfortunately the only practical way to get a customer to take notice is to impact their service, and injecting banners to advise of overdues (which I belive Vodafone used to do in the bad old days) isn't even an effective method, because people don't read things unless they want to.

 

Providers have helpdesks, if you're experiencing issues, contact them and ask if there are any known outages. Also, as an aside, your troubleshooting should've taken you to look at the ONT and seen that it was in an error state due to the lights lit up, as the maintenance in question was impacting POLTs, and each area was impacted for a brief window only. I am a self-admitted awful customer to deal with, and I find this kind of outage reasonable and easily identifiable for a technical person, and if you're not a technical person you're calling the support desk or going "Well I guess I'll go to bed and see if it works in the morning".

 

 

 

Valcor:

 

TBH I don't see how it is that impossible to send a notice that is auto generated on outage maps like the Spark one also lists scheduled maintenance. No different from support tickets or tracking ticket that can automatically be generated and posted on ISP Network Status pages. It's not asking Chrous to ring every single person in New Zealand and tell them, but there is technology already that that auto updates status messages.

 

The issue here is this was a simply question and not sure why some people were met with such hostility. 

 

 

 

 

Again, as I noted, you provide that sort of notice and you'll generate a large volume of customer contacts asking for compensation, clarification, or just general anxiousness asking to rebook the work to a night they're not home as it might affect them. Simply not viable at such a scale.





Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.


 
 
 

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).
Valcor
97 posts

Master Geek


  #2791502 7-Oct-2021 20:57

There are massive subscription services with more subscribers than the entire country that have regular maintenance periods that are communicated to their subscribers and no one demands refunds for that period. 

 

Some services are even down for 5 - 24 hours on nearly a monthly basis and no one questions it because it is communicated. 

 

However, many of these ISP also have connection promises that allow the use of other forms of internet like mobile networks during times of outages or interim times before internet is connected or when internet connections are down, if these downtimes are not listed then these promises cannot be fulfilled. 

 

I didn't really care until people started saying that for some reason it impossible to post one update, when there is currently scheduled maintenance listed for Reefton yet last night affected connections from Cape Reinga to the Bluff and radio silence. 

 

 

 

 


toejam316
1312 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2791504 7-Oct-2021 21:05
Send private message

Valcor:

 

There are massive subscription services with more subscribers than the entire country that have regular maintenance periods that are communicated to their subscribers and no one demands refunds for that period. 

 

Some services are even down for 5 - 24 hours on nearly a monthly basis and no one questions it because it is communicated. 

 

However, many of these ISP also have connection promises that allow the use of other forms of internet like mobile networks during times of outages or interim times before internet is connected or when internet connections are down, if these downtimes are not listed then these promises cannot be fulfilled. 

 

I didn't really care until people started saying that for some reason it impossible to post one update, when there is currently scheduled maintenance listed for Reefton yet last night affected connections from Cape Reinga to the Bluff and radio silence. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's all about expectations though isn't it. Roadworks and you have to drive a different way to work? You grumble. World of Warcraft down to maintenance? Well, this always happens, but grumble grumble. Your entire internet connection gone? INTERNET IS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE AND I SHOULD BE COMPENSATED! I PAY ALMOST $100 EVERY MONTH!

 

Customers have a different level of expectation for the internet, and it's kind of unreal. My favourite experience was when there was a massive power outage in Raglan, and one of my customers CALLED ME DIRECTLY instead of our support line, and said "Hey John, my internet has stopped working and I can't seem to work out why." "The power's out." "OH! Right, of course!".





Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.




jmosen
550 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2791509 7-Oct-2021 21:14
Send private message

I haven't read anyone in this thread expecting to have 24/7 uptime on a residential connection. It's reasonable to set expectations in the terms and conditions regarding that.

 

 

 

What isn't reasonable is the contempt shown for customers by not informing them so that if they're working or doing something critical, they can plan accordingly. Yes, people do work at 1 AM and people are going to be more concerned about this in the COVID era.

 

 

 

One way to put the heat on the industry to sort this out would be to make a TDR complaint.





Jonathan


Valcor
97 posts

Master Geek


  #2791512 7-Oct-2021 21:23

Don't see this being a problem if it is stipulated in Terms of Service. 

 

And as people have been saying that is usually in the early hours in the morning when majority of customers are not using the service so I doubt it would generate that much expectation of reimbursement. 

 

However, what is annoying is not being informed and then troubleshooting for 15 minutes, then having to search around the internet on your mobile thinking that surely the ISP or Chorus will have some kind of status up and having nothing, then have to look around social media for others experiencing the same. 

 

For those who do not do that, they will call the ISP about the issue and it would then lead to the exact same "I pay $100 a month, Internet is a human right and cure for cancer" conversation. 


jmosen
550 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2791513 7-Oct-2021 21:24
Send private message

toejam316:

 

If you've ever had to contact customers proactively regarding something like this, you'd understand that it's simply not feasible.

 

At my previous job with a small WISP, I worked for a company with less than 1000 customers at the time. Getting information to customers was simply painful, with out of date contact information, rejecting phone calls, wild accusations and all sorts of insanity to notify of outages, overdue bills, etc.

 

Unfortunately the only practical way to get a customer to take notice is to impact their service, and injecting banners to advise of overdues (which I belive Vodafone used to do in the bad old days) isn't even an effective method, because people don't read things unless they want to.

 

Providers have helpdesks, if you're experiencing issues, contact them and ask if there are any known outages. Also, as an aside, your troubleshooting should've taken you to look at the ONT and seen that it was in an error state due to the lights lit up, as the maintenance in question was impacting POLTs, and each area was impacted for a brief window only. I am a self-admitted awful customer to deal with, and I find this kind of outage reasonable and easily identifiable for a technical person, and if you're not a technical person you're calling the support desk or going "Well I guess I'll go to bed and see if it works in the morning".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most customers receive a bill via email. It's not unreasonable to expect an email via that channel about a planned outage. There is also social media. Someone who cares enough about their Internet connection is likely to be following their ISP via one social media channel or another.

 

 

 

Both of these steps represent best effort. You'll still miss people, of course, but best effort is better than absolutely no effort, which is just rude.

 

 

 

At 1 AM, the Orcon help desk is not open. I know this, because I called it this morning.

 

 

 

As for the lights on the ONT, they are not accessible to someone who is totally blind as I am.

 

 

 

Yes, I have worked at senior management level in IT companies where it was necessary to contact customers about planned outages. It's the right thing to do and it is the usual thing to do.





Jonathan


Linux
10537 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2791515 7-Oct-2021 21:25
Send private message

A complaint to the TDR about not getting a notification for a planned outage would be thrown out in 2 seconds for a consumer grade internet connection



jmosen
550 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2791517 7-Oct-2021 21:30
Send private message

Linux: A complaint to the TDR about not getting a notification for a planned outage would be thrown out in 2 seconds for a consumer grade internet connection

 

 

 

Please identify any precedent for this assertion.

 

 

 

Will go ahead and lodge one.





Jonathan


Zeusssy
38 posts

Geek

ID Verified

  #2791522 7-Oct-2021 21:55
Send private message

Working for an ISP I see both sides of this argument.

 

Firstly yes, we do advise our customers(on plans with agreements that stipulate we will do this) of upcoming planned work. These are relayed like clockwork almost every time that work will affect them, sometimes yes it is still missed.

I have ask about the update of outage maps before and was unaware of how difficult it was to update, scale this up for every planned action as I know how many permits there are for work on just our network, add in the LFC's and there would be a scary amount shown each night, each with different times/slight different areas or overlaps also. And with 90+% of users I would think would never even know they were affected. I assume this is why it is more of a reactive thing for residential customers, because if it was critical, they wouldn't be on residential plans and would have BCP. I don't work with residential customers though so take my opinion with a grain of salt.  

 

But I do agree that sometimes the outage maps not reflecting what is known planned outages/upgrades is a let down.

 

Even if 5% of affected users actually noticed the outage - 80% of those would probably look to the outage map once they found their router still powered on and all of these people would know they could relax until something upstream was fixed.


dolsen
1449 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2791523 7-Oct-2021 21:56
Send private message

jmosen:

 

Linux: A complaint to the TDR about not getting a notification for a planned outage would be thrown out in 2 seconds for a consumer grade internet connection

 

Please identify any precedent for this assertion.

 

Will go ahead and lodge one.

 

 

As much as I've said previously in this thread, I would expect ISPs notifying all of their customers for every outage to be unwieldly and to generate large volumes of help desk traffic. I don't think that it would be desirable and would cause more problems than it would solve. There are too many people who, if you sent that sort of email, would either not understand it, or, try and use it to get money re-reimbursed for the inconvenience irrespective of how much inconvenience it truly was to them.

 

What I would have liked to see was clear status pages of known outages on the ISP pages, along with some integration with the chorus outage notification to quickly look it up. 

 

 

 

 


quickymart
11975 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

  #2791525 7-Oct-2021 22:06
Send private message

jmosen:

 

Linux: A complaint to the TDR about not getting a notification for a planned outage would be thrown out in 2 seconds for a consumer grade internet connection

 

 

 

Please identify any precedent for this assertion.

 

 

 

Will go ahead and lodge one.

 

 

A serious query, what sort of outcome are you looking for from your complaint? Compensation?


jmosen
550 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2791527 7-Oct-2021 22:07
Send private message

dolsen:

 

As much as I've said previously in this thread, I would expect ISPs notifying all of their customers for every outage to be unwieldly and to generate large volumes of help desk traffic. I don't think that it would be desirable and would cause more problems than it would solve. There are too many people who, if you sent that sort of email, would either not understand it, or, try and use it to get money re-reimbursed for the inconvenience irrespective of how much inconvenience it truly was to them.

 

What I would have liked to see was clear status pages of known outages on the ISP pages, along with some integration with the chorus outage notification to quickly look it up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, could definitely live with that. As long as clear expectations are set about where one has to go to check, and that info is kept accurate, that is reasonable in my view.

 

 

 

Just lodged the TDR complaint and to add insult to injury, the complaint form is not screen reader accessible. Not good. Had to borrow some working eyeballs via Teamviewer to get it done.





Jonathan


quickymart
11975 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

  #2791528 7-Oct-2021 22:08
Send private message

dolsen:

 

As much as I've said previously in this thread, I would expect ISPs notifying all of their customers for every outage to be unwieldly and to generate large volumes of help desk traffic. I don't think that it would be desirable and would cause more problems than it would solve. There are too many people who, if you sent that sort of email, would either not understand it, or, try and use it to get money re-reimbursed for the inconvenience irrespective of how much inconvenience it truly was to them.

 

What I would have liked to see was clear status pages of known outages on the ISP pages, along with some integration with the chorus outage notification to quickly look it up. 

 

 

Are you thinking of something like this? (Vodafone's mobile outages page):
https://www.vodafone.co.nz/help/network-status/

 

 


Linux
10537 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #2791529 7-Oct-2021 22:08
Send private message

jmosen:

 

Linux: A complaint to the TDR about not getting a notification for a planned outage would be thrown out in 2 seconds for a consumer grade internet connection

 

Please identify any precedent for this assertion.

 

Will go ahead and lodge one.

 

 

@jmosen Keep us posted how it goes, Let me get my popcorn


jmosen
550 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2791531 7-Oct-2021 22:14
Send private message

quickymart:

 

A serious query, what sort of outcome are you looking for from your complaint? Compensation?

 

 

 

 

Definitely not compensation. There are two levels of relationship here. Chorus and the RSPs, and the RSPs' relationship with the customer. This is why the TDR is the right place for this because it's an industry-wide issue.

 

 

 

What I've asked is that they think about what is reasonable in terms of getting this information to interested customers ahead of time when there is a planned outage.

 

In August, a very similar issue occurred with electricity where there was frustration that end-users could have been notified before their power was cut. Again you had the electricity geeks on the radio trying to justify what was in the end shoddy customer service.

 

So I have asked the TDR to develop a clear protocol around communicating these outages ahead of time to those customers who have expressed an interest in having them.





Jonathan


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic





News and reviews »

One New Zealand Extends 3G Switch-off Date
Posted 11-Apr-2024 08:56


Amazon Echo Hub Review
Posted 10-Apr-2024 18:57


Epson Launches New Versatile A4 Desktop Scanners
Posted 10-Apr-2024 15:31


Motorola Mobility Launches New Android Phones in New Zealand
Posted 10-Apr-2024 14:59


Logitech G Unveils the PRO X 60 Gaming Keyboard
Posted 9-Apr-2024 19:01


Logitech Unveils Signature Slim Keyboard and Combo
Posted 9-Apr-2024 13:33


ExpressVPN Launches Aircove Go Portable Router With Built-in VPN
Posted 26-Mar-2024 21:25


Shure MoveMic Review
Posted 25-Mar-2024 12:47


reMarkable 2 Launches at JB Hi-Fi New Zealand
Posted 20-Mar-2024 08:36


Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra review
Posted 19-Mar-2024 11:37


Google Nest Wifi Pro Review
Posted 16-Mar-2024 11:28


Samsung Galaxy A55 5G and Galaxy A35 5G
Posted 12-Mar-2024 12:41


Cricut EasyPress Mini Zen Blue launches at Spotlight New Zealand
Posted 12-Mar-2024 12:32


Logitech Introduces MX Brio Webcam
Posted 12-Mar-2024 12:24


HP Unveils Broadest Consumer Portfolio of AI-Enhanced Laptops
Posted 3-Mar-2024 18:09









Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.







Backblaze unlimited backup