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  #432495 29-Jan-2011 00:43
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Definitely you should have been informed that essential infrastrucure was being connected as part of a trial with no choice of internet provider or phone equipment. Personally I would have refused to let them install a Linksys box and demanded a carrier-grade ATA or gateway to provide telephone service. The fact that Chorus think their ONT does not need to provide any POTS service, and that home owners can get the run-around like this, shows what a disaster we will have if Telecom win the FTTP contract for any major city.

However, that does not excuse sparkies from downright negligence taking on communications cabling jobs without understanding the implications of taking outdated shortcuts that don't even meet the current standards, and from giving customers wrong advice. While there are several standards for home network wiring, all of them specify structured (star) networks.




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  #432513 29-Jan-2011 08:04
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webwat: Definitely you should have been informed that essential infrastrucure was being connected as part of a trial with no choice of internet provider or phone equipment. Personally I would have refused to let them install a Linksys box and demanded a carrier-grade ATA or gateway to provide telephone service. The fact that Chorus think their ONT does not need to provide any POTS service, and that home owners can get the run-around like this, shows what a disaster we will have if Telecom win the FTTP contract for any major city.



I can't disagree more. Define the difference between your "carrier" grade device and a WRP400 or SRP521? Apart from some minor teething issues these are rock solid devices. The Linksys hardware has exceptionally good T.38 support and also supports low speed data well over appropiate codecs. There are ONT's out there with far worse VoIP capabilities, particularly with legacy devices. The Linksys hardware also provides fantastic auto provisioning capabilities which is a critical part of any mass hardware deployment these days. 

There is absolutely no limitation of phone hardware or VoIP provider. Don't like what you've got? Then set your own system up. Telecom partnered with WXC solely because they're unable to provide their own retail VoIP service.

And nowhere have Chorus said that they don't believe ONT's should not provide a POTS service. Technology choices were made for the existing greenfields areas and it's completely logical that you stick with the same hardware across a deployment rather than chopping and changing creating a total disaster.




 
 
 
 




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  #432524 29-Jan-2011 10:02
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I've just had a re-look at my costing figures. Comparing costs from during-build and post-build electrician work, it's actually worked out cheaper for me to get this star wiring done now, rather than during the build (some prices went up, others went down). And the difference roughly negates the wasted copper wiring costs.

Biggest thing wasted so far is time.

Still plan on probably chasing up my subdivision's developers over the wasted copper costs, just out of principle, and for any digging costs Chorus requires me to do, since I'm sure a trench would have been open during the build that they could have used... (though from this thread's insight, hopefully the existing piping will suit).

I don't mind being locked into a fibre trial, long as the service actually works, but a heads-up would've been nice. I probably still would've bought the land regardless.

Only having one ISP to choose from is a bit limiting, though. Keen to see some other ISPs get on board for the sake of competition, but hopefully WorldxChange will be good for now or I'll be raging for sure.




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  #432525 29-Jan-2011 10:30
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sbiddle:
webwat: Definitely you should have been informed that essential infrastrucure was being connected as part of a trial with no choice of internet provider or phone equipment. Personally I would have refused to let them install a Linksys box and demanded a carrier-grade ATA or gateway to provide telephone service. The fact that Chorus think their ONT does not need to provide any POTS service, and that home owners can get the run-around like this, shows what a disaster we will have if Telecom win the FTTP contract for any major city.



I can't disagree more. Define the difference between your "carrier" grade device and a WRP400 or SRP521? Apart from some minor teething issues these are rock solid devices. The Linksys hardware has exceptionally good T.38 support and also supports low speed data well over appropiate codecs. There are ONT's out there with far worse VoIP capabilities, particularly with legacy devices. The Linksys hardware also provides fantastic auto provisioning capabilities which is a critical part of any mass hardware deployment these days. 

There is absolutely no limitation of phone hardware or VoIP provider. Don't like what you've got? Then set your own system up. Telecom partnered with WXC solely because they're unable to provide their own retail VoIP service.

And nowhere have Chorus said that they don't believe ONT's should not provide a POTS service. Technology choices were made for the existing greenfields areas and it's completely logical that you stick with the same hardware across a deployment rather than chopping and changing creating a total disaster.





seconding this, Most commercial VOIP offerings offer Linksys SPA's as their main device because they are stable as hell, provisioning is second to none and work's in almost any setup you put them in. Also with you put the SPA in the ONT you remove alot of control and insight into the VOIP service from the VOIP provider and make it hard/longer to find faults as Network operators wont allow you access to ONT config/status

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  #432529 29-Jan-2011 10:43
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I think a couple of posts here are very off the mark without an actual understanding of what occurs when subdivisions are serviced by fibre.

How do you think infrastructure is built to subdivisions ? , there is a process where the developers have to be in contact with the infrastructure providers Telco / Power / Water / Councils etc so they can get these services built, it doesn't happen by magic !!.

Chorus at this stage will have advised the developers of the technology being used i.e. Fibre as they will not put copper in the ground for larger subdivisions any more, they also supply the info around it that includes the brightspark info etc, Chorus have a dedicated team to this and are working pretty hard to educate and pass on information to the developers, how do I know this , because I have been involved with project with Telecom and Chorus since the first deployment. One of the biggest challenges it seems the developers aren't listening / understanding or even passing this on which seems to be what has happened in this case. There is no way that Chorus would not have informed the developers that the subdivision would not be serviced by fibre.

Sorry Webwat the comments that you made here "The fact that Chorus think their ONT does not need to provide any POTS service" and I don't want to be rude but they show you actually have no idea what the deployment models are here and is a pretty misleading statement made by someone that has nothing to do with the project.

Chorus have nothing to do with the services being deployed so will make no call on what is used, why do we not use the ONT's simple really , they will not support a wholesale model from what we have seen i.e allowing SP to control Voice and data services whilst keeping separation between SP, They do not work fully with the options that we require of our softswitch SIP interop, they actually don't have any switch ports for your home wiring solution you wan to add a switch as well now and there's more ... Yet this is a carrier grade unit ?

The current cisco / linksys devices actually are pretty powerful devices and if you have ever looked at the Voice module have a huge range of features and capabilities that are not even close to being supported by the carrier grade ONT, The units are based on the SIPURA SIP stack which is widely regarded as the worlds best SIP stack, Do you actually know how these units are performing in the deployed FTTH subdivisons now to base your comments around not putting them in the house ? I will assume not, please also take into account there is a cost for the RGW and the current model provides customers with a very low cost device that will suit 99% of residential FTTH deployments.


When the Pilot finishes there will be options for all Service Providers to provide services but right now there were not a lot putting there hands up with a carrier grade deployment model for the pilot, why because WxC has have a deployed carrier grade SIP network for over 8 years that had a mass deployment provisioning model, or were you more than happy to have the NGN pilot run from an Asterisk server where the user must bring , configure and support the home device themselves ?,

Once again I'm sorry I i sound harsh but the last couple of comments I believe are being made with out being actually involved with anything to do with the FTTH pilot and what is being looked at around deployment models, so you are making some uneducated assumption and comments IMHO.














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  #432531 29-Jan-2011 10:53
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ChrisNZL: I've just had a re-look at my costing figures. Comparing costs from during-build and post-build electrician work, it's actually worked out cheaper for me to get this star wiring done now, rather than during the build (some prices went up, others went down). And the difference roughly negates the wasted copper wiring costs.

Biggest thing wasted so far is time.

Still plan on probably chasing up my subdivision's developers over the wasted copper costs, just out of principle, and for any digging costs Chorus requires me to do, since I'm sure a trench would have been open during the build that they could have used... (though from this thread's insight, hopefully the existing piping will suit).

I don't mind being locked into a fibre trial, long as the service actually works, but a heads-up would've been nice. I probably still would've bought the land regardless.

Only having one ISP to choose from is a bit limiting, though. Keen to see some other ISPs get on board for the sake of competition, but hopefully WorldxChange will be good for now or I'll be raging for sure.


Good comments Chris and I have actually forwarded this thread on to a few people involved at Chorus and Telecom because really this is the feedback that we need, you will see I made a few comments in the previous post/ rant around this.

I believe the biggest issue for you was lack of information and I personally belive this has been Chorus biggest challenge to date and I know they are working extremely hard to make sure the developers pass this on and they have all the information they need and they do supply them with all the info, they (the developers) obviously have not passed this on in this case and from my point of view that's very disappointing.

The funny thing is that we ourselves are wanting competition as we believe it will cement our product firmly at the top of the tree when compared with other non carrier grade offerings.




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  #432532 29-Jan-2011 10:58
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A small misleading fact there. Telecom subdivision group still do recommend copper installations for large subdivisions. How do I know this? We have just started the physical installation phase of a 500 dwelling subdivision (my company being the engineers) and the copper design was completed by chorus in November 2010.

 
 
 
 


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  #432546 29-Jan-2011 12:03
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I am persuaded that this particular Linksys gear is pretty stable with all the right codecs (unlike the PAP2), but it doesn't sound like there there was a good choice of ONTs at all, despite the fact that Alcatel is pretty big.

Of course Xnet is great, but consumers still need a choice and the developers should have some liability for not sharing this information. Telecom even has brochures the developer can hand out to everyone so I can't see an excuse for the information not to have been passed on.




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  #432553 29-Jan-2011 12:59
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webwat: I am persuaded that this particular Linksys gear is pretty stable with all the right codecs (unlike the PAP2), but it doesn't sound like there there was a good choice of ONTs at all, despite the fact that Alcatel is pretty big.

Of course Xnet is great, but consumers still need a choice and the developers should have some liability for not sharing this information. Telecom even has brochures the developer can hand out to everyone so I can't see an excuse for the information not to have been passed on.


Yes thats right webwat, and choice will be availabale in the near future when the pilot ends, and again your right all that info has been passed out to developers (Chrous does this btw) and yet it's disappointing when that flow of information is not getting out to the end customers like Chris, it's vitally important for everyone envolved that this info is passed out as we don't want to see things like this with Chris where he dosn't appear to have rxed any info , the same applies for the electricial contractors as well, in this new NGN world and FTTH ... Info is king  





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  #432571 29-Jan-2011 14:23
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Its not the first time that house owners have had no idea their place is connected to fibre, but the house wiring should be done properly either way. The original Flat Bush pilot about 3 years ago resulted in customers calling me up saying they can't get an ADSL signal after the "move address" was completed by Telecom. Unfortunately it may not be just the developers who don't make sure their customers know what's going on, perhaps there's some responsibility for real estate agents etc as well.




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  #432603 29-Jan-2011 17:05
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webwat: Definitely you should have been informed that essential infrastrucure was being connected as part of a trial with no choice of internet provider or phone equipment. Personally I would have refused to let them install a Linksys box and demanded a carrier-grade ATA or gateway to provide telephone service. The fact that Chorus think their ONT does not need to provide any POTS service, and that home owners can get the run-around like this, shows what a disaster we will have if Telecom win the FTTP contract for any major city.

However, that does not excuse sparkies from downright negligence taking on communications cabling jobs without understanding the implications of taking outdated shortcuts that don't even meet the current standards, and from giving customers wrong advice. While there are several standards for home network wiring, all of them specify structured (star) networks.


I find it interesting that you are blaming electricians here. As I've already posted it's normally always discussed, at least it is when I do quotes, at the time of planning to do star wired installations. Most electricians follow this practise. I'll say it again. The issue is when the customer does not want to spend the extra money on it. It does cost extra. There are patch panels, phone hubs, a comms board, plus an extra cost for the runback of all the cat(x) cables to the box. The client doesn't always see the point in spending the money on this even with phrases like "with fibre you will need it". We can't inject them with some mind altering drug and get them to spend more. It doesn't work that way. So stop blaming us.

The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  

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  #432612 29-Jan-2011 17:45
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snnet: The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  


And this leads on to my belief that a minimum wiring spec should be in the building code, and applied to every new home built in NZ. Without it things will simply never move forward.

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  #432614 29-Jan-2011 17:47
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sbiddle:
snnet: The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  


And this leads on to my belief that a minimum wiring spec should be in the building code, and applied to every new home built in NZ. Without it things will simply never move forward.


I'd be in support of that- but how can it actually be accomplished? Do you think signatures would suffice for it? It'd sure make my job easier. 

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  #432683 29-Jan-2011 21:24
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snnet:
sbiddle:
snnet: The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  


And this leads on to my belief that a minimum wiring spec should be in the building code, and applied to every new home built in NZ. Without it things will simply never move forward.


I'd be in support of that- but how can it actually be accomplished? Do you think signatures would suffice for it? It'd sure make my job easier. 


write to your loal MP?

or council. i dont know.

both? lol. 





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  #432694 29-Jan-2011 21:50
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hamish225:
snnet:
sbiddle:
snnet: The fact that all the standards you are looking at are apparently star wired does NOT change this AT ALL. They are standards, NOT regulations or legal requirements in any way, shape, or form. The customer therefore is not forced to do it. Otherwise we wouldn't even discuss options- it'd just be a forced star install at a higher cost to the client. If some of us did that, we'd likely lose work because others would undercut us. It isn't feasible.  


And this leads on to my belief that a minimum wiring spec should be in the building code, and applied to every new home built in NZ. Without it things will simply never move forward.


I'd be in support of that- but how can it actually be accomplished? Do you think signatures would suffice for it? It'd sure make my job easier. 


write to your loal MP?

or council. i dont know.

both? lol. 


somehow, I'm not sure they'd care about something like this...

But I could be wrong. For some reason they care about broadband speeds when we still have poverty in auckland 

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