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2237 posts

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  #2200763 18-Mar-2019 13:13
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I was very impressed with how quickly the NZ ISP community came together to implement blocks against this stuff.

 

Yup, it was a type of censorship and one that I fully support.

 

Those of you who worked on this should be proud of yourselves.


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  #2200765 18-Mar-2019 13:14
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So in addition to our local ISP's censoring content. From a glance over YouTube, the songs used in the shooting are having comments disabled (rightfully) but for some other ones which are of a memey nature have been removed entirely and had some other meme remixes removed too (Do note these have nothing to do with the event other than the shooter playing the music.) Its staggering what is going on all because someone took one of the most popular cultures (Memes) and turned it into a reality. The thing with memes is that it is all completely satire until someone literally goes and becomes one..

 

If you look at the innocent song Gas Gas Gas by Manuel which is a song from Initial D and check the comments you can see why... 


 
 
 
 


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  #2200770 18-Mar-2019 13:21
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When sites take down the information they are removed from the temporary block. There have been some sites that have actively refused to remove the material (after being advised specifically of it and being asked to remove it) and as such they will remain blocked at the moment.

 

This next comment is not official Spark policy, it's my personal opinion, and I VERY rarely do this in matters relating to my job or employer.

 

If you're that concerned about us (or any ISP) taking action in these extraordinary circumstances to prevent exposure where possible to people just following a link, then please go find an ISP that purely shares your idealistic view and doesn't care about protecting people where possible. We won't miss you. In the current situation we've chosen to be humane and considerate, not idealistic and if you don't respect that, I think you're a bad person with a screwed up set of morals and I want nothing to do with you in any capacity ever again. If there was a blocklist on here, I would be using it.

 

Cheers - N





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


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  #2200790 18-Mar-2019 13:54
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Talkiet:

 

If you're that concerned about us (or any ISP) taking action in these extraordinary circumstances to prevent exposure where possible to people just following a link, then please go find an ISP that purely shares your idealistic view and doesn't care about protecting people where possible. We won't miss you. In the current situation we've chosen to be humane and considerate, not idealistic and if you don't respect that, I think you're a bad person with a screwed up set of morals and I want nothing to do with you in any capacity ever again. If there was a blocklist on here, I would be using it.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

No one here has questioned the morality on it. Only the legality and that lack of any transparency, it only came apparent after myself and others made a comment then you and JP making a non official statement. I do not see any media comms, court proceeding, I don't see anything. This is all I ask for, still havn't got it.. The only reason I raise this is because in the grand scheme of things, an entire national market of consumers was just totally casual/not made aware and let this slide. Who is to say in the future that this is possibly going to occur again but in favor of a commercial interest? Sets a precedent to some degree I feel.. 

Don't go taking this whole thing too personally, will blow over in a few weeks and we all will go back to typical discussions.. 
Seems that I or others have angered you a little as you are now wanting to block people and have nothing to do with them over this. People have the right to question things in the world and stand up for what is legally correct and what is not.

 

In heartfelt times like these you can tell who would and would not make a good lawyer/judge. 


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  #2200792 18-Mar-2019 13:59
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Coil:

 

Talkiet:

 

If you're that concerned about us (or any ISP) taking action in these extraordinary circumstances to prevent exposure where possible to people just following a link, then please go find an ISP that purely shares your idealistic view and doesn't care about protecting people where possible. We won't miss you. In the current situation we've chosen to be humane and considerate, not idealistic and if you don't respect that, I think you're a bad person with a screwed up set of morals and I want nothing to do with you in any capacity ever again. If there was a blocklist on here, I would be using it.

 

Cheers - N

 

 

No one here has questioned the morality on it. Only the legality and that lack of any transparency, it only came apparent after myself and others made a comment then you and JP making a non official statement. I do not see any media comms, court proceeding, I don't see anything. This is all I ask for, still havn't got it..

Don't go taking this whole thing too personally, will blow over in a few weeks and we all will go back to typical discussions.. 
Seems that I or others have angered you a little as you are now wanting to block people and have nothing to do with them over this. People have the right to question things in the world and stand up for what is legally correct and what is not.

 

In heartfelt times like these you can tell who would and would not make a good lawyer/judge. 

 

 

I'm done. I'm making my own list. There was only one single person ever on that list before today (a person with a serious criminal conviction). I don't think you're wrong for having these thoughts and wanting these answers, I just think you're a bad person with little empathy for wanting it now.

 

Bye.

 

 





--

 

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.


4530 posts

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  #2200799 18-Mar-2019 14:08
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Coil:

 

No one here has questioned the morality on it. Only the legality and that lack of any transparency, it only came apparent after myself and others made a comment then you and JP making a non official statement. I do not see any media comms, court proceeding, I don't see anything.

 

This is all I ask for, still havn't got it..

 

 

This was linked one page back,  seems like media comms to me...

 

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1903/S00432/isps-working-together-to-block-websites-with-footage.htm

 

New Zealand Internet Service Providers working together to block websites with footage of Christchurch shooting
The New Zealand telecommunications industry is working together to ensure that any website with footage of the Christchurch terrorist attack is inaccessible to New Zealanders.

 


The country’s main internet service providers (ISP), Spark, Vodafone, Vocus and 2degrees, are blocking any website which has footage of the Friday 15 March Christchurch mosque shootings.

 


The New Zealand Telecommunications Forum (TCF) Chief Executive, Geoff Thorn, said that this is an unprecedented move by the telecommunications industry, but one that they all agree is necessary.

 


“The industry is working together to ensure this harmful content can’t be viewed by New Zealanders,” said Thorn.

 


“The gunman clearly wanted his actions to be seen, but we do not believe that this is desirable and are doing what we can to prevent this from happening as much as possible.”

 

The ISPs are sharing their knowledge with each other, and across the industry, to ensure each can block sites as soon as they are found to contain the video footage.

 


A number of websites have so far been blacklisted, with requests made for the website to remove the footage.

 


“There is the risk that some sites that have legitimate content could have been mistakenly blacklisted, but this will be rectified as soon as possible,” said Thorn.

 


“The industry has a history of cooperating and putting competitive behaviour to one side for the benefit of New Zealanders, of which this is another good example.”


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  #2200800 18-Mar-2019 14:12
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I can understand the motivation, and I'm not going to condemn anyone or any ISP, but none the less it makes me very very uneasy.

 

As can probably be anticipated from my signature, I'm a fan of John Gilmore and the EFF in general. I'm old enough and have been online long enough to remember when the EFF was shiny and new and full of righteous outrage at the Steve Jackson Games raid. I remember Eternal September, and I've watched the internet change hugely since then and often not for the better. I believe in net neutrality, in that neither ISP's or governments should be able to slow, block or censor anything online. By all means allow people to opt in to blocking systems, or worst case enable them by default and disable on request like Port 25 stuff, but I just can't escape the queasy feeling in my stomach that this was the opening of Pandora's box with regard to blocking. 





Information wants to be free. The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.


 
 
 
 


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  #2200805 18-Mar-2019 14:22
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I think this discussion will go in circles here forward and just end up with people here battling against each other rather than sticking together as we should around these times.

I can agree with people that this is a terrible event and our ISP's have done an excellent job in their abilities to censor this to date. 

Looking at this realistically, the supporting legalities are not here for these crisis events. I personally cannot expect for an event at 2PM 2 hours before COB for the week that we would legally have this all tied up in a knot all pretty and ready to go by 4PM. I can't even expect that today or this week. 

 

We did not even know the extent of what was about to spread and to what scale, so these actions while not legally supported (To my understanding) were done with good judgement in mind and was not an abuse of power from what I can see. I respect the work done by the respective teams. 

Going forward I expect legislation to come in which allows ISP's to react to these situations in a way that does not allow for me to make noise :), that is all I can ask. I cannot really complain any further given this is something we wouldn't expect to encounter. Lets hope that going forward any changes that are made for reaction to these events is NEVER used. 

Kia Kaha all, spend this time thinking about your families and friends. We will work the rest out later. 


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  #2200808 18-Mar-2019 14:32
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Coil:

I think this discussion will go in circles here forward and just end up with people here battling against each other rather than sticking together as we should around these times.

I can agree with people that this is a terrible event and our ISP's have done an excellent job in their abilities to censor this to date. 

Looking at this realistically, the supporting legalities are not here for these crisis events. I personally cannot expect for an event at 2PM 2 hours before COB for the week that we would legally have this all tied up in a knot all pretty and ready to go by 4PM. I can't even expect that today or this week. 


We did not even know the extent of what was about to spread and to what scale, so these actions while not legally supported (To my understanding) were done with good judgement in mind and was not an abuse of power from what I can see. I respect the work done by the respective teams. 

Going forward I expect legislation to come in which allows ISP's to react to these situations in a way that does not allow for me to make noise :), that is all I can ask. I cannot really complain any further given this is something we wouldn't expect to encounter. Lets hope that going forward any changes that are made for reaction to these events is NEVER used. 

Kia Kaha all, spend this time thinking about your families and friends. We will work the rest out later. 



Very good post.




Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2200842 18-Mar-2019 14:54
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While there are great arguments on both sides of this debate, my personal goal at this point is simply to gather information on what is happening.  I want to see the full picture so that I can analyse it and then make up my mind about whether it is a good or bad thing.

 

If anyone would be willing to share their experience with me in terms of which sites have been blocked and by which ISPs I would really appreciate it.

 

Flick me a PM if you are not comfortable sharing this on a public forum.

 

Thanks.


Devastation by stupidity
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  #2200906 18-Mar-2019 16:38
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As a result of this event, I have changed my views about censorship. I previously was opposed to all forms of it as a matter of principle. I now think that it can be justified in certain extreme circumstances like the one we have just experienced. I think the actions of the New Zealand ISPs were probably the correct ones.

 

What I would like to see is an arrangement similar to what has occurred, in which site blocking can be temporarily implemented by ISPs in extreme situations. The decision to do so should be up to the ISPs, either individually or collectively, possibly in agreement with the police or other authorities, but any mechanism should be able to be implemented without delay and it should be clearly limited in duration. For example, such site blocking would have to be lifted after a specified emergency period of a few days or at most a week or so unless a formal rigorous legal process has been undertaken, probably through the courts.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2200930 18-Mar-2019 17:32
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rugrat:
Sounds like sites being blocked are used for other purposes as well, hopefully there’s some more finesse in fine turning what’s blocked.

I’m not against it being blocked, just wondering what the future implications of it will be.


At this point in time, the only way for NZ ISPs to block is on the domain level and currently only when using their own DNS resolvers. (Due to HTTPS). There are DPI solutions to MITM DNS (on port 53, not DOH/DNS over TLS) and modify queries but afaik these aren't in place (yet)

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  #2200961 18-Mar-2019 18:17
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As long as it doesn't go beyond controlling the ISP's own DNS servers, I don't take issue with it. By all means, this sort of thing should be censored, and not readily available to the public. The only thing that would concern me would be specifically if my traffic were to be interfered with by my ISP (like DNS hijacking or blocking specific IP ranges), which would be enough to cause me to change providers or look at alternative methods (such as DNS over TLS or VPN tunneling). It wouldn't surprise me to see in the coming months a more formal method for this sort of thing to occur.





Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.


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Trustpower

  #2201034 18-Mar-2019 20:01
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hio77:

 

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1903/S00432/isps-working-together-to-block-websites-with-footage.htm

 

The one large RSP i see missing from this list is trustpower.

 

 

While I cannot comment further on this, I can confirm that as with the other major RSP's, Trustpower also made the decision to block access to a number of websites as well - https://www.facebook.com/trustpower/photos/a.734749403234360/2738906116152002/ 





Any comments made are my personal views and does not represent those of my employer


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Master Geek


  #2201226 18-Mar-2019 22:10
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Do we know why zerohedge was blocked by ISP's? I can't access it on 2degrees.

I'm guessing Breitbart and Foxnews are next?

Well I've been thinking about swapping out to a new ISP for a while, and now I have my reason.

This whole thing seems just like a PR campaign by the the ISPs.. using a tragedy to stay on the good side of the public. If it had anything to do with the actual video then they should have blocked facebook and youtube.


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