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joutei
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  #686720 16-Sep-2012 17:02
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Just speechless.
Why is this thread still going. (sigh)




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johnr
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  #686721 16-Sep-2012 17:06
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joutei: Just speechless.
Why is this thread still going. (sigh)


Your guess is as good as mine!

Delorean
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  #686728 16-Sep-2012 17:15
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I wonder when the following will be said;

'but wait, there's more!'





networkn
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  #686829 16-Sep-2012 20:36
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gregmcc: Software is software, if it's in a cellphone, computer, coffee maker, or car, makes no difference. Imagine if there was a bug in the software of the ABS computer of your car and under certain conditions the brakes would not function at all, no imagine if the car maker said "tough luck, we will get around to issuing a patch and releasing it when we feel like it, good luck".

so the cell phone software crashing isn't as bad as the ABS computer in a car failing, but the CGA does quite clearly say software must be free from defects



 - Removed so this thread can die!


ahmad
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  #686923 17-Sep-2012 07:50
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sbiddle: Going right back to the start I posted about software and the CGA - something many people are overlooking.

Software is covered by the CGA, an inclusion that was added in 2002. There is case law regarding claims, but they're not going to side with the OP. If he wants to push the claim I'm sure you'll be able to get some good legal advice, however it's certainly going to cost you more than a new phone.

I may be mistaken but I was always lead to believe that "case law" is not generated and possibly not accepted at Disputes Tribunal hearings? I may have misunderstood an aspect of this though.

kontonnz
137 posts

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  #686954 17-Sep-2012 09:31
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The initial OP has an interesting premise, and seems a lot of people have dismissed it outright, and while I think that at present the likely hood of winning a case using the CGA would be very low, the legal liability aspect is something that is starting to be asked.  

Their have been questions asked over whether software when not performing as "expected" could result in a legal consequence, in fact in the United States their have already been some cases with mixed results already occurring, it comes down to whether the software is defined as service or a good, if software is defined as a good then their is a good chance that the OP could hold lack of security updates as this is not intended for how the software is meant to be operated. 

Already their a murmurings within security to hold software developers liable for security vulnerabilities and while so far this has come to naught questions are starting to be asked, especially if you have a legal/contract obligation to insure software is updated (insurance can now ask to ensure your software is updated for claims).  The EC (European commission pulls this out every few years I think when their bored), and its not just Europe that has questioned this, thankfully for developers nothing has come of this.  But all it could task is for some deaths to occur due to software faults be it security or coding by developer/logic etc that result in death.

also just remember when you buy a phone with a software it is nicely shrink wrapped and put in a box, their is no contract on the outside to establish a service contract with the device purchaser.

networkn
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  #686964 17-Sep-2012 09:47
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gregmcc: Software is software, if it's in a cellphone, computer, coffee maker, or car, makes no difference. Imagine if there was a bug in the software of the ABS computer of your car and under certain conditions the brakes would not function at all, no imagine if the car maker said "tough luck, we will get around to issuing a patch and releasing it when we feel like it, good luck".

so the cell phone software crashing isn't as bad as the ABS computer in a car failing, but the CGA does quite clearly say software must be free from defects



Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.



karit

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  #686981 17-Sep-2012 10:16
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networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.

NonprayingMantis
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  #686983 17-Sep-2012 10:23
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gregmcc: Software is software, if it's in a cellphone, computer, coffee maker, or car, makes no difference. Imagine if there was a bug in the software of the ABS computer of your car and under certain conditions the brakes would not function at all, no imagine if the car maker said "tough luck, we will get around to issuing a patch and releasing it when we feel like it, good luck".

so the cell phone software crashing isn't as bad as the ABS computer in a car failing, but the CGA does quite clearly say software must be free from defects



That's not analagous since the software in the phone doesn;t have a fault, just a security vulnerability that people with the rights skills could exploit.

More analogous would be then a car being sold with glass windows that were not brick proof so that people could break in simply by throwing  a brick through the window.
do the car manufacturers have to replace these windows with non-broick proof windows, or is this 'securtiy vulnerability'  not deemed to be a breach of the CGA?

networkn
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  #686994 17-Sep-2012 10:34
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karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 

joutei
307 posts

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  #687108 17-Sep-2012 13:35
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networkn:
karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 


Save your breath bro, I think its just going in one ear and out the other.




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joutei
307 posts

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  #687109 17-Sep-2012 13:35
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networkn:
karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 


Save your breath bro, I think its just going in one ear and out the other.




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networkn
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  #687112 17-Sep-2012 13:51
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joutei:
networkn:
karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 


Save your breath bro, I think its just going in one ear and out the other.


I guess I just expected more from some of the people who contributed to the thread. Never mind, I guess I'll just unsubscribe.


karit

84 posts

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  #687120 17-Sep-2012 14:08
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networkn:
karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 


So are your saying the CGA shouldn't apply at all? What is the difference between a software defect and a hardware defect in a switch in my toaster? They are both defects.

Why are people placing a lower standard on what they expect from software than they do from hardware? Chances are that if it plugs into the wall these days it will have some level of firmware/software in it, so should manufacturers get a free rein if they just say software bug not covered. If that is the case best for the manufactures to move any thing possible into software so they don't need to fix it when it breaks.

The other option is the CGA outdated and needs to be brought into the reality of 21st century?

gregmcc
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  #687126 17-Sep-2012 14:18
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karit:
networkn:
karit:
networkn: Based on that, I presume you will return every device which has software on it (including all your smartphones) , back to the manufacturer for a refund, and not purchase any computers ever again, since almost every bit of software in existence will have defects! Also you will never use any website.

If they fix the defect they don't have to give you a refund. Other OSs release security fixes on a regular basis e.g. Windows, OSX and Linux.


Well the chances of them fixing every defect=nil so based on the "reasonable timeframe" clause he would have no choice. 


So are your saying the CGA shouldn't apply at all? What is the difference between a software defect and a hardware defect in a switch in my toaster? They are both defects.

Why are people placing a lower standard on what they expect from software than they do from hardware? Chances are that if it plugs into the wall these days it will have some level of firmware/software in it, so should manufacturers get a free rein if they just say software bug not covered. If that is the case best for the manufactures to move any thing possible into software so they don't need to fix it when it breaks.

The other option is the CGA outdated and needs to be brought into the reality of 21st century?



At the end of the day a defect is a defect if it's software or hardware the CGA is quite clear it applies to both.

Retailers/importers in this country need to be aware of this and build this in to the price of their products, if they don't then they will be the losers, they cannot opt out/contract out of the CGA


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