LED Downlight Glare

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gedc

355 posts

Ultimate Geek

#250636 20-May-2019 09:23

About 2.5 years ago we replaced all the 12v/50w halogen downlights in the home with LED downlights- LEDLUX from lightingdirect. This is the newer version of what we bought

https://www.lightingdirect.co.nz/shop/Downlight+Lights/LED+Downlights/LEDlux+ELEMENT+3000K+DIMMABLE+DOWNLIGHT+BRUSHED+CHROME/x_sku/15611.html

A ' lighting consultant' came out and recommended the placements etc. For the majority of the home, they work just fine but in the two living areas, where we spend a lot of time sitting down etc, the glare from them is very bad - particularly the ones farther across the room. I suspect it has to do with the diffuser and how it throws out the light over a wider area. So bad that we generally don't have them on as you either get this constant eye catching halo from the ones farther across the room, or this washed out feeling from the ones overhead as they blast anything below. If you lie down on the sofa then it just gets worse :)

We also have additional spots in the kitchen in front of the cupboards - LED's again but likely a 70 to 80 degrees field and the led source is recessed about 1 inch up into the unit. No glare from them unless standing quite close and looking up.

Has anyone got the same issue / found a way around it. We don't want to return to halogens and the good lady likes the relatively clean look of the spots so a ceiling fixture could be an option but not preferred. I've seen a couple of ' ultra low glare ' LED downlights appearing in NZ but not sure how they work or is it simply a recessed led etc

We have 8 of them in the living room (5m x 6m) on 4 circuits - probably too many ?- originally had 19 x 50w downlights in the same space when we bought the home. Tried putting a couple of them onto a dimmer but saw a fair bit of flicker with 4 different dimmer brands.

Thinking that an option is to use a standing lamp in the corner for background lighting for most things and have a couple of the ultralow glare ones ready for more specific / task based activities ?

About to upgrade the 20 year old kitchen which is attached to the open plan living room so decided to sort out the lighting / patching old holes etc as going to need to repaint anyways.

Thanks for any pointers.

Ged

Kim587

128 posts

Master Geek

#2241372 20-May-2019 13:06

I'm not sure about your glare issue specifically but I do find LED lights can be very intense if there are too many of them. The living room at my parents' place (similar size to yours I think) has 6 and I still find that a bit much at times, it feels a bit like stadium lighting. In my own home I've only got two LED recessed downlights in a 4x4.5metre living room and it feels fine, enough light without being too harsh. 8 probably is too many for your room, have you experimented with only having a couple of those circuits running at a time and seeing how that feels?

This is a matter of personal preference but I'd also suggest checking if your lights are warm white or cool white - I find the warm white lights a lot more gentle and comfortable to live with.

I'd still suggest you look at some other lamps or perhaps some wall mounted lights. I've never regretted having the option to turn to a more gentle light source especially later at night. Dimmable LED lights can also work well but are a bit hit and miss, if you tried that many dimmers it would suggest that the drivers in your lights don't like being dimmed.

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timmmay

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#2241436 20-May-2019 13:43

We use table lamps with low wattage LED bulbs. Because part of the light goes direct but more goes up and bounces off a large surface (ceiling) you get a much softer light then you will ever get with ceiling lighting.

gedc

355 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2241440 20-May-2019 13:48

Thanks for all that. We stuck a beside light into the room last night on a bookshelf and pretty much replicated that 'softer' lighting look around the main living / tv area.

We will likely sort out a floorstander for that corner to replicate that light effect. Still need some ' brighter' downlights for the odd use but keen to replace the current set with ones with less sideways glare and hopefully dimmable as well but not essential.

wellygary

8253 posts

Uber Geek

#2241453 20-May-2019 13:57

Looking at the link you provided, it talks about a "field angle" of 150%, (beam of 80-90%)

That's the source of most of you problem, at 150 degrees, you have a field edge at 75 degrees from the Vertical.....

If you have a ceiling 2.4 or 2.7m, you'll get a spread of 9-10 metres in each direction from the vertical.... hence why you are getting glare looking at them from a distance....

gedc

355 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2241474 20-May-2019 14:18

Thanks WellyGary. 2.4 ceiling height. That sounds like the issue. I'm looking at this product just now as a replacement. I'm assuming from what you have intimated it 'works' because it has a 60 degrees beam or 30 degrees either side of the light ?

https://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/product/d-lightz-fixed-ultra-low-glare-led-downlight/

wellygary

8253 posts

Uber Geek

#2241505 20-May-2019 14:44

gedc:

Thanks WellyGary. 2.4 ceiling height. That sounds like the issue. I'm looking at this product just now as a replacement. I'm assuming from what you have intimated it 'works' because it has a 60 degrees beam or 30 degrees either side of the light ?

https://www.switch-lighting.co.nz/product/d-lightz-fixed-ultra-low-glare-led-downlight/

That looks like a much tighter angle,

That new one should have a edge of something like 4 metres, from the centre (and that is a very worst case, I suspect it will be better than that)

Paradoxically you should probably do some measurements just to make sure that they are not too tightly focussed, you don't want to end up with a "polka dot" effect with darker fringes surrounding super bright "super trouper" spots of light :)

gedc

355 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2241581 20-May-2019 15:31

To throw another option in the mix. Just been chatting to a friend at work who has installed philips hue downlights and bulbs around his home. Off to see them tonight. Dimming through software or via remote wall controller. He swears by them, the flexibility of them, soft lighting and multi colored lighting if required.

Several hundred to get setup with controller etc and each downlight appears x2 compared to the cheaper ones we have installed but they look good and dim without any flickering etc.

Has anyone had experience ?

bfginger

1250 posts

Uber Geek

#2252750 6-Jun-2019 08:48

We have 8 of them in the living room (5m x 6m) on 4 circuits - probably too many ?- originally had 19 x 50w downlights in the same space when we bought the home. Tried putting a couple of them onto a dimmer but saw a fair bit of flicker with 4 different dimmer brands.

Imo fixtured lighting in the living area should always be on a dimmer. Turning the light down reduces glare for when you want to watch the TV while you can turn it up all the way when you need the most light. Another advantage is that it gives you a margin of error so can over-light your space and then turn the brightness down instead of having to guess how much is the right amount of light.

LEDs have a finite lifespan and having them underdriven on a dimmer should extend that lifespan. The market is full of LEDs with lifespan compromised designs so in effect dimming them is running at the level they should be at to last.

There are two types of dimmers, leading and and trailing edge. These articles gives an explanation:

http://www.kiwielectronics.co.nz/downloads/Dimming%20Electronic%20Transformers%20Explained.pdf

https://leapfroglighting.com/trailing-edge-or-leading-edge-led-dimming/

LEDs should be powered by a trailing edge dimmer. But dimming LEDs can be problematic. Quality of dimmers on the market is usually bad which causes problems and incompatibilities. Another is that people always install leading edge dimmers or "universal" dimmers left to the default leading edge setting. Some LEDs may be designed around leading edge dimmers for this reason.

I went with the Kiwi dimmer set to trailing edge and it works well with the Switch downlight.

Although they're out of fashion the old R80s are good for glare as you can point them away.

Handsomedan

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#2252758 6-Jun-2019 08:54

We have a high ceiling/low floor set up, but we also had dimmers fitted to all of the rooms we didn't want glare in, when we had the sparky in to replace our standard downlights with LED's.

they work a treat, but don't change the colour temperature of the lights like incandescent bulbs, which is quite good. You get less light/glare but the same colour, so it's not like having candles.

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bfginger

1250 posts

Uber Geek

#2252761 6-Jun-2019 09:01

There are some downlights that change colour temperature when dimmed. Switch's "sunset dimming" option goes down to 2200k when fully dimmed.

gedc

355 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2252891 6-Jun-2019 11:52

Thanks all. We've just had switch out to review and she did comment our LED's were quite 'sparky' which was quite amusing :) They have given me a sunset dimmable LED to try. It's wired in and we really like it on the dimmer setting. It does change color temperature and goes fairly yellow but for watching TV / lighting at night it is pretty darn spot on.

jonathan18

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#2252916 6-Jun-2019 12:29

Though it probably will not help in this particular circumstance (as I'm not sure if there's the right type/size/base for your fittings) but I've just bought a couple of Philips SceneSwitch bulbs for our lounge. They have the built-in function of reducing light output simply by an additional flick of the switch (I guess like disabling a security light's auto-turnoff). Apparently go from 100% > 40% > 10%, and will remember the previous setting.

Certainly was a cheaper option for us than getting a dimmer fitted, and certainly way cheaper than going the way of Hue bulbs - we just want the ability to sometimes have more suitable background light for watching TV, but generally have enough light to read by.

The sparky's installing new fittings for us today, so haven't tried these bulbs out yet - does anyone else have experience with these?

(BTW, was able to use the Mitre 10 price match last night to get these for $11.something, as opposed to M10's $15 price - https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/philips-led-sceneswitch-bulb-es-8-watt-warm-white-2700k/p/297880 ); third time in the last few days I've used it to get decent savings, including on an Insinkerator and a Cavius smoke alarm.)

bfginger

1250 posts

Uber Geek

#2253030 6-Jun-2019 14:14

I got a sceneswitch bulb. I don't like the lowest dimming mode as the 2200k is too red for me.

The Sunset dimming option isn't mandatory for dimmable Switch downlights.