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Handle9

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#278463 18-Oct-2020 02:00
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After the carnage of the election the party has been gutted. It'll be interesting to see what changes they make. Hooton, who I find both interesting and toxic, wrote a good (paywalled) piece in the Herald on Saturday. His theme was that National has done nothing to adapt after failing to form a government in 2017. 

 

 

But, already, National MPs are telling themselves they have been cheated again. Had Bridges not been rolled, the May polls and approval ratings would have been mere aberrations. The public would have seen through Ardern by now, voted reluctantly for Bridges and the Key-English era would be restored. Looking ahead, they say, if the party just returns to the status quo ante, National already has 2023 in the bag.

 

This view will likely be the majority view of National MPs elected tomorrow. Among them is a growing faction of evangelical Christians, who are motivated less by economic policy than the American culture wars, and who have been dubbed the Taliban by more mainstream party members.

 

If so, history will repeat itself over the next three years. National MPs will refuse to accept the public's verdict, and decline to engage with new ideas or even contemporary New Zealand attitudes. They will resolve again to sit back smugly and wait for Ardern to fail, this time by her suddenly charting an unpopular far-left course.

 

 

I think it's likely to be fairly unpleasant for the next little while with infighting, leaks  and lots of general nastiness. I guess there will be an attempt to roll Collins, who I don't think will go quietly. It's fairly likely to be a pretty difficult time for National as they go through the necessary reinvention. 

 

The likes of Collins, Smith and Brownlee need to move on and make way for a new generation. In 2023 it'll be 7 years since Key went, they can't keep rolling out the same old faces.


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Batman
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  #2586871 18-Oct-2020 06:07
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They are irrelevant in the midst of a pandemic when the country is virus free. Probably got to wait till pandemic is over. In politics things change. Look at yesterday's deputy prime minister.



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  #2586881 18-Oct-2020 07:51
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I'm not a National voter, never will be; but I think Judith will stay. She's only just started in the job, really, and hasn't had a lot of time to do a great deal.

 

I think Todd taking on the role was a case of biting off more than he could chew.

 

Simon was okay, but I don't feel he was going to win over too many voters from the other parties.

 

This is the second time Winston's been voted out of Parliament, if memory serves?


Dochart
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  #2586882 18-Oct-2020 07:54
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As long as Jacinda Ardern is at the helm I don’t see National being able to win another election until JA retires which could mean another 25 years of Labour being in power.




JD




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  #2586893 18-Oct-2020 09:03
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Gerry Brownlee being spanked in Ilam could be a guide for the National Party.

 

Old age and treachery will not always beat youth and exuberance.

 

 


SJB

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  #2586899 18-Oct-2020 09:36
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National are in the same position as Labour were a few years back. Trying to unseat a very popular leader with no ammunition. Think Little against Key.

 

Labour can't rely on Ardern forever though, especially as she needs a disaster of some sort to show her best qualities. Voters get tired of the same old faces after a while, say 3 terms, and just look for a change. And I can see her heading to the UN, possibly even as soon as when the next Secretary General is appointed.

 

If you take Ardern out of the equation Labour look as bereft of talent as National. Kelvin Davis, Phil Twyford, Andrew Little, all hopeless. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #2586996 18-Oct-2020 11:03
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SJB:

 

If you take Ardern out of the equation Labour look as bereft of talent as National. Kelvin Davis, Phil Twyford, Andrew Little, all hopeless.

 

While there is certainly a heavy reliance on Ardern, arguing that no other Labour minister or MP has talent is probably more of a reflection of political bias than an honest reflection of reality.

 

I'd certainly agree with you on Davis, and based on his track record it seems to be the case with Twyford, but I totally disagree with lumping Little in the same category; sure, he didn't make a good leader but that's not a reflection of his wider skill-set: it was great to see him announce Labour will get rid of the 'three strikes' law this term, given NZF won't be there to stop progress. There are also a bunch of other ministers who are competent, eg Robertson, Woods... 

 

Going back to Davis: it's going to be interesting who gets the DPM position - if Labour elects to go it alone, can you really see Kelvin Davis as DPM material?  


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  #2587000 18-Oct-2020 11:22
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I don't really have a political bias. As I implied above if you take Ardern away both parties are pretty lacklustre. Collins and Brownlee for example look like throwbacks to a different era.

 

Please, please please - not James Shaw as DPM.


 
 
 
 

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  #2587003 18-Oct-2020 11:41
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SJB:

 

I don't really have a political bias. ...

 

Please, please please - not James Shaw as DPM.

 

 

And why not?

 

Best-case scenario from my (politically biased) perspective... 


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  #2587004 18-Oct-2020 11:42
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SJB:

 

I don't really have a political bias. As I implied above if you take Ardern away both parties are pretty lacklustre. Collins and Brownlee for example look like throwbacks to a different era.

 

Please, please please - not James Shaw as DPM.

 

 

If the economy has any importance in these trying times, Labour has Robertson. There is a gulf to the next person in whatever party you look at. The economy is the big story for the next term


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  #2587005 18-Oct-2020 11:47
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jonathan18:

 

SJB:

 

I don't really have a political bias. ...

 

Please, please please - not James Shaw as DPM.

 

 

And why not?

 

Best-case scenario from my (politically biased) perspective... 

 

 

Robertson as DPM

 

No reason or benefit to give it to Shaw. I expect Greens and Maori party will be brought in as coalition partners, or C+S. Make a full team. No negotiations or concessions as they haven't learnt any, and not needed. Greens will need to focus on green not hard left and bring forward meaningful climate change measures.


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  #2587010 18-Oct-2020 12:00
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tdgeek:

 

Robertson as DPM

 

No reason or benefit to give it to Shaw. I expect Greens and Maori party will be brought in as coalition partners, or C+S. Make a full team. No negotiations or concessions as they haven't learnt any, and not needed. Greens will need to focus on green not hard left and bring forward meaningful climate change measures.

 

 

I was more trying to tease out why that poster so strongly objected to Shaw as DPM, yet also professed to not being politically biased! But, yeah, as someone who hoped for a result that would have had Labour needing the Greens support to secure a majority, I would have liked to see Shaw and/or Marama Davis in the role.

 

As for who within Labour gets the DPM role - it's much more complex than it going to the most competent Minister. My understanding is that Kelvin Davis' appointment to the deputy leader position was more to do with appeasing groups within the caucus, something that Robertson's appointment as DPM won't achieve. (And being in coalition with NZF meant they really didn't need to worry about him becoming DPM; how often did he need to deputise for the deputy last term?) Given the increased size of Labour's caucus this time around, and that there may well be no second party involved, managing these matters will be even more critical/difficult.  


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  #2587071 18-Oct-2020 13:32
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I actually think the opposite. GR is DPM, makes a lot of sense and he did run for leadership during one of Labours many leadership fails. While I won't compare John Key and Bill English to PM Adern and Grant Robertson, from a solid, sensible and stability viewpoint, they are very similar. The four of them are also likeable.

 

There are many ways to reward the Greens, as long as they keep their ultra left wing stuff out of it and focus on NZ being Green.


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  #2587082 18-Oct-2020 13:45
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jonathan18:

 

I was more trying to tease out why that poster so strongly objected to Shaw as DPM, yet also professed to not being politically biased!

 

 

I just don't like him in the same way I don't like many other politicians of various colors. No particular reason.


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  #2587089 18-Oct-2020 14:23
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I’m wondering how much influence Act will have over National in future. They have gained big.

 

Lot of National supporters I knew dropped support for them when they saw they were planning on getting rid of legal minimums for breaks.

 

If Act has more influence there could be even bigger attacks on workers.

 

Even without that, with COVID 19 would still expect them to have lost, but they may have got some more votes.

 

National will come back, all parties after a long period start to get complacent  and start making mistakes annoying the swing voter.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092612/90day-trials-would-return-but-lunchtime-gone-by-lunchtime-under-national-small-business-policy


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  #2587134 18-Oct-2020 14:56
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rugrat:

I’m wondering how much influence Act will have over National in future. They have gained big.


Lot of National supporters I knew dropped support for them when they saw they were planning on getting rid of legal minimums for breaks.


If Act has more influence there could be even bigger attacks on workers.


Even without that, with COVID 19 would still expect them to have lost, but they may have got some more votes.


National will come back, all parties after a long period start to get complacent  and start making mistakes annoying the swing voter.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300092612/90day-trials-would-return-but-lunchtime-gone-by-lunchtime-under-national-small-business-policy



I don’t think National will have a chance for a very long time. I expect Jacinda Ardern to be Prime Minister till she retires at 65. People will continue to support Jacinda Ardern even when for the last 3 years most of their promises they did not deliver. If they fail to deliver their promises again, people will still vote for her.

I guess most people don’t really care if they fail to deliver on their promises.




JD


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