Payment with services rendered? Not in NZ!

Forums › Off topic › Payment with services rendered? Not in NZ!

lostangel

163 posts

Master Geek

#72753 2-Dec-2010 09:10

Currently this is how it stands for most service based businesses:

1. Provide the service
2. Get paid for the service(the hours worked and associated costs)

But it seems this simple system of pay as you go is not shared by all NZ businesses.

For daycare/Early educators:

1. Enrol a child to attend
2. Get paid whether or not the child attends(so paid for doing nothing if the child isn't there)

Why?

A child cannot even be sick without the parent being charged, this is an abomination!

I see no valid reason as to why these daycare outfits should be exempt from the same rules as other businesses. Why should anyone ever be expected to hand over their cash for non-service?

I believe this may have been a rushed through law change a little while back when National took over from Labour and I can see no merit in it but to line the pocket of daycare owners with money they have not worked for.

What is everyone elses thoughts on this?

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1489 posts

Uber Geek

#411929 2-Dec-2010 09:18

So, you think that because your child isn't attending, the centre doesn't need to pay it's staff?

Or that they could frantically fill your spot?

Oh, but of course you'll want that spot back when your child is well again I suppose?

If you want the spot, you pay the money.

He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

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James Sleeman
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lostangel

163 posts

Master Geek

#411952 2-Dec-2010 09:41

sleemanj: So, you think that because your child isn't attending, the centre doesn't need to pay it's staff? Or that they could frantically fill your spot?

Certainly they need to pay their staff, but they were going to be there already!
And they could simply send one worker home if there were too many away, and not have to pay them.

sleemanj: Oh, but of course you'll want that spot back when your child is well again I suppose?
If you want the spot, you pay the money.
He who pays the piper, calls the tune.

These 'spots' you are referring to make up the total capacity of the daycare, why should they be 'full' every day?

Other service based businesses are not at full capacity every day, but have changes. Why should we pay to keep their books full, maximising profit every day?

Other businesses handle circumstances that cause them less profit, lets take civil contracting as an example:
Bad weather? Send people home.

But not a daycare, they legally avoid a change in their circumstances, bah!

geekiegeek

2513 posts

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Inactive user

#411959 2-Dec-2010 09:46

If you join a gym you dont get to claim back fees for days you dont turn up :-)

You cant claim back your Sky TV fees because you wernt watching that day.

graemeh

2078 posts

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#411961 2-Dec-2010 09:48

lostangel: I see no valid reason as to why these daycare outfits should be exempt from the same rules as other businesses. Why should anyone ever be expected to hand over their cash for non-service?

It's simple, you've been given a price based on your child being there every day. Just ask them for a casual day price where you only pay if the child attends.

lostangel

163 posts

Master Geek

#411966 2-Dec-2010 09:55

geekiegeek: If you join a gym you dont get to claim back fees for days you dont turn up :-)

You cant claim back your Sky TV fees because you wernt watching that day.

Thanks for your input but these are pay to use as much as you like, and lose out if ya don't type subscriptions.

The daycares are pay for your hours(even if not there).
They also charge you if you are say early on drop-off/pickup by 1/2 and hour. That is they have the same amount of hours but you are chaged extra!

I've never come across something similar.

Imagine if you organised a plumber to show up at 8 am to meet you, but you were gonna be late, 10 am.
Ya phone the plumber the night befor o let him know. He charges ya from 8 - 10 as well as the 10 am work. Would ya pay him? I doubt it! But this is exactly what daycares can do, all legally too.

robjg63

4090 posts

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#411976 2-Dec-2010 10:01

graemeh:
lostangel: I see no valid reason as to why these daycare outfits should be exempt from the same rules as other businesses. Why should anyone ever be expected to hand over their cash for non-service?

It's simple, you've been given a price based on your child being there every day. Just ask them for a casual day price where you only pay if the child attends.

As above but also assume that the daycare may say - "sorry - we are full today - cant take your bundle of joy - try again tomorrow".

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

sleemanj

1489 posts

Uber Geek

#411982 2-Dec-2010 10:09

For every X children, you need Y staff members, legally, no getting around it. It depends on the age of the children also. And the staff members have mandated periods of non-contact time which must also be covered.

If you didn't have to pay for your child not attending when sick, that means less income, which means the staff is more costly (as are all the other overheads), taken to the extreme if almost everybody is sick (which actually there is a decent chance in a preschool, illness rips through them like wildfire) the business is in loss making territory. Preschool education establishments (at least the majority) are walking a pretty tight financial line most of the time.

And you say "why can't they send a staff home", oh yeah, I'm sure that would be great, "sorry Joe, we don't need you today, no we won't be paying you".

---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

graemeh

2078 posts

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#411983 2-Dec-2010 10:09

lostangel: I've never come across something similar.

Imagine if you organised a plumber to show up at 8 am to meet you, but you were gonna be late, 10 am.
Ya phone the plumber the night befor o let him know. He charges ya from 8 - 10 as well as the 10 am work. Would ya pay him? I doubt it! But this is exactly what daycares can do, all legally too.

So you've never been to a doctor, dentist or physio then?

Some have quite clear policies that if you don't cancel more than, say, 24 hrs before the appointment then you pay a cancellation fee.

It's a little different with a plumber as they can move their bookings around as none apart from the first one in the morning normally have confirmed times.

nate

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#411984 2-Dec-2010 10:09

Don't have kids?

/I know, not helpful

wreck90

780 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#411985 2-Dec-2010 10:12

I see your point and can sympathise.

But, if your child is sick, the childcare facility cannot rush round and find a temporary kid to fill its spot.

Neither can they send staff home as they have mortgages to pay too.

This is just one of those things you must suffer.

My sons Karate club closes over part of summer, but we still pay the same monthly fee. It annoys me, but I put up with it.

sleemanj

1489 posts

Uber Geek

#411986 2-Dec-2010 10:12

lostangel:
Ya phone the plumber the night befor o let him know. He charges ya from 8 - 10 as well as the 10 am work. Would ya pay him? I doubt it! But this is exactly what daycares can do, all legally too.

"Hi Mr Plumber, hey I'm going to be late to our appointment. WHat's that, can you let somebody else have my appointment? NO! I Booked in that appointment, I always want that appointment, you can just wait right there and do nothing until I'm ready. WHAT! You want to change me for the time that you are waiting not able to take another appointment, why should I pay you for doing nothing!"

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James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

xpd

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#411992 2-Dec-2010 10:16

Daycares are required to have a ratio of teachers/minders:kids - they look at their enrollments for the week and allocate enough staff to cover the kids as required. Because you ring up on Monday morning saying your child wont be attending Monday, isnt the daycares fault, they still had to have that staff member there assuming your child would be there.

I run a service desk, Id be hell p***ed if I walked in one day and my boss said "Go home with no pay because there wont be any calls/machines in today" - he cant assume that, and nor can the daycares with the kids.

I have 2 kids in daycare so I know exactly how it feels to be paying for something not being used but its life, move on........

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lostangel

163 posts

Master Geek

#412214 2-Dec-2010 18:46

Ok ... At the same point then shall we extend this to cover other businesses?

Again with civil contracting ... It's a wet day so we can't work on your road, but our staff cannot be sent home, it might interupt their financial security, affect their mortgages .....

Well boo hoo to the road workers, cos that's exactly what happens, forrestry workers, most outdoor jobs really(apart from farming).

How would everyone then like paying for those wet days people should have been doing their jobs, but can't?

Also, why do these places need 2 weeks notice to take a day off(the child) and then charge 1/2 price for that day?

The margains simply cannot be that slim that they need this sort of legislation that other businesses do not!

sleemanj

1489 posts

Uber Geek

#412219 2-Dec-2010 18:53

lostangel:
Again with civil contracting ... It's a wet day so we can't work on your road, but our staff cannot be sent home, it might interupt their financial security, affect their mortgages .....

Huh? Do you think that road workers don't get paid if it's raining? Not likely sonny jim.

---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#412228 2-Dec-2010 19:21

sleemanj:
lostangel:
Again with civil contracting ... It's a wet day so we can't work on your road, but our staff cannot be sent home, it might interupt their financial security, affect their mortgages .....

Huh? Do you think that road workers don't get paid if it's raining? Not likely sonny jim.

depends. sometimes they are casual/temp labour forces and so, no, they do not get paid if they are not needed, and might not know they are not needed until the day.

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