Strategies for delaying all-in fibre

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potscrubber

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#237874 21-Jun-2018 19:24

Hello Community

I would like to canvas opinions on the questions below. The context is that we live in a small town (Thames) with bad weather & frequent power outages, and we don't have great cell reception where we live (2degrees). We have great solid VDSL (70/30) - have had for years (snap/2degrees). Fibre is being rolled out here. It's currently on standby on our verge, and we've gotten the "fibre is here" card from Chorus. I know that copper will eventually be decommissioned (probably sooner than I think). My partner doesn't like the idea of losing copper, and I'm not sure I do either. We have reservations about the resilience of losing that network (while it exists). We've both had crappy experiences with VoIP home phones. I understand that to keep the copper landline + fibre we will need two connections (if that's even possible). Currently the copper floats from the pole on the verge to our house.

- if we request copper landline + fibre (two connections) will Chorus be able/willing to run the two cables side by side in the air?
- if we decline the fibre installation (it's free now as I understand), do you think will we eventually have to fork out installation costs to put it in at a later date when copper is decommissioned?

Appreciate any knowledgable input. If you want to debate me on our semi ludditism please make it entertaining.

Thanks

wellygary

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#2041930 21-Jun-2018 19:44

You are going to get transferred over to VOIP even if you remain on copper, given the decomissioning of SPark's PSTN network....

Bit the bullet,

Buy a quality ATA and get a battery backup for the ONT, router and ATA and you will likely have better resilience than what you have now.....( fibre worried much less about getting its feet wet)

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richms

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#2041941 21-Jun-2018 19:57

You will not really have any way to stay on copper. If you power the ONT then you should have no problems tho, since it isnt realiant on a powered cabinet like DSL is, VOIP was problematic when sold on a low upstream speed connection like many ISPs did with selling ADSL and voip on the router.

Richard rich.ms

DarkShadow

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#2041950 21-Jun-2018 20:03

potscrubber:

- if we request copper landline + fibre (two connections) will Chorus be able/willing to run the two cables side by side in the air?

Yes. Ask your ISP to request Chorus to "retain copper". Chorus would then remove the existing copper cable and replace it with a two-in-one copper+fibre cable. They don't run two cables side by side due to resource consent requirements. source p.6

- if we decline the fibre installation (it's free now as I understand), do you think will we eventually have to fork out installation costs to put it in at a later date when copper is decommissioned?

No. In the new proposed law Chorus will need to get you a free fibre install before they kick you off copper. source 1 (3) (a) (ii) (B)

potscrubber

25 posts

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#2041961 21-Jun-2018 20:09

Hey thanks all for the replies so far, especially DarkShadow.

Is it just me or do other people wonder on the long-term wisdom of burying a fibre network in an earthquake prone country?

richms

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#2041964 21-Jun-2018 20:12

Well there is no point in putting more copper in, and it is being used well beyond its design intent. So when its at the end of life or beyond as it is for large parts of the country it would be absurd to put more copper in place to replace it.

Richard rich.ms

timmmay

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#2041971 21-Jun-2018 20:14

Fiber should be very reliable. I've had it for at least a couple of years and I don't remember an outage - I'm not saying we haven't had one, but nothing comes to mind.

Get a Sentry Lite DC UPS which is made to power the ONT and your router, a 7ah 12V battery or so (they can sell you one), that will last you 4-6 hours. You can also get a larger battery that you charge with a car battery charger occasionally, or use a car battery. Just beware of the terminal types, probably best to get the one they sell and then get one that has matching terminals.

ZephireNZ

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#2042181 22-Jun-2018 09:45

potscrubber:

We've both had crappy experiences with VoIP home phones.

Fibre companies allows for ISPs to request a "guaranteed" bandwidth (under normal conditions) - I can't speak for all ISPs, but 2degrees requests a "guaranteed" minimum of 2.5Mbps upload and download which means VOIP should work pretty well.

Just make sure you get yourself a modem that supports "Quality of Service" settings, so it can priotise VOIP over other traffic to use that minimum bitrate.

Any opinions are my own and do not represent those of 2degrees

Aredwood

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#2042695 22-Jun-2018 22:30

potscrubber:

Hey thanks all for the replies so far, especially DarkShadow.

Is it just me or do other people wonder on the long-term wisdom of burying a fibre network in an earthquake prone country?

The fibre network is more reliable than copper even without earthquakes. And importantly it is also easier to repair if a fault does occur. The fibre network is actually a whole lot of little tubes, each one with a strand of the actual fibre inside. The fibre can move around inside the tube, so it can handle ground movement better than copper. If a tube breaks, the tube can be repaired, then a new strand of fibre is installed.

Large parts of the copper network still use main cables that are encased with lead, and which have paper insulation on the cable pairs. Ground movement causes the lead to crack, water gets in, cable is ruined due to the paper insulation getting soaked. And soon, all copper connections will be VOIP based. As the NEAX switches, along with the legacy Asynchronous Transfer Mode network will be decommissioned. Chorus actually has no choice, as alot of that network is over 30 years old, and replacement parts are becoming difficult to obtain.

Also note as well, is the government is providing extra funding to improve cellphone reception.

acjh58

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#2042780 23-Jun-2018 12:02

The fibre network is more reliable than copper even without earthquakes. And importantly it is also easier to repair if a fault does occur.

Large parts of the copper network still use main cables that are encased with lead, and which have paper insulation on the cable pairs. Ground movement causes the lead to crack, water gets in, cable is ruined due to the paper insulation getting soaked. And soon, all copper connections will be VOIP based. As the NEAX switches, along with the legacy Asynchronous Transfer Mode network will be decommissioned. Chorus actually has no choice, as alot of that network is over 30 years old, and replacement parts are becoming difficult to obtain.

Not quite correct. Couple of points:

1. the fibre network has thankfully not been subjected to a major quake, except bits of the Enable network in Chch. Hopefully it will stand up well, but it's worth noting that the copper network in Christchurch did very well. The major casualty was feeder cable running to New Brighton, which was replaced by a fibre transmission system and local calling provided from Wellington.

2. ease of repairing fibre networks will be dependent on what happens to the ducts and mini-ducts during the emergency. Experience with fibre drop installation has demonstrated that its difficult or impossible to blow new fibre into damaged ducts

3. Pressurised cable with paper insulation is now quite rare - principally running from old central exchanges in urban areas which now have ubiquitous UFB. Some of this infrastructure is getting close to 100 years old (eg cables in Cathedral Square). In hindsight, it has been extremely reliable.

4. Chorus will not be replacing NEAX switches or ATM infrastructure as these are assets belonging to Spark. Despite Spark/Telecom NZ lifecycle management of NEAX, some assets are now 40 years old - beyond the age where the semiconducters in the circuit boards were expected to last. Replacement of the NEAX with the Ericsson IMS does not really mean ubiquitous VOIP, but it will mean a move away from analogue and 64kbps PCM voice (as we already have on our mobile networks).

Alan

richms

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#2043021 24-Jun-2018 00:28

Well the issues with water in cables around here have had the chorus techs saying that the copper in the ground is lead insulated, they love fixing it. I bet they are counting the days down till everyone around here can get fiber and they can do even less to fix the copper when it breaks than they do now.

Richard rich.ms

pctek

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#2043120 24-Jun-2018 12:20

How to delay fibre install:

Ring and book your install with your ISP.

Wait.

Chorus will b*****r about for ages, it's normal.

potscrubber

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#2043122 24-Jun-2018 12:27

Really interesting read. Thanks to all contributors so far.

sbiddle

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#2043129 24-Jun-2018 13:37

If you've had a bad experience with VoIP it was no doubt something that wasn't engineered properly. Many calls you make now will involve a VoIP leg and VoIP quality is identical to POTS for the very reason it uses the same PCM 64kbps codec that the PSTN uses. The days of "bad VoIP" pretty much ended 8-10 years ago once the technology evolved.

Depending on who your provider is you are already on a VoIP connection without even realising it.

With the shutdown of the NEAXs starting in 2020 everybody in NZ will need to move to either FWA, UFB VoIP, or VoIP over copper from the cabinet or exchange which is already in use by a large number of people.

The POTS network as you know it pretty much ceases to exist from 18 months time, so there isn't really anything to actually debate. Your choices are either a VoIP over UFB or VoIP connection using copper to the cabinet or exchange which you'll be paying a $50ish per month premium for if you go with UFB for Internet.

potscrubber

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#2043133 24-Jun-2018 13:52

Thanks for your angle. And in the instance of VoIP over copper to the (typical) cabinet, in a power outage, voice line is lost?

sbiddle:

If you've had a bad experience with VoIP it was no doubt something that wasn't engineered properly. Many calls you make now will involve a VoIP leg and VoIP quality is identical to POTS for the very reason it uses the same PCM 64kbps codec that the PSTN uses. The days of "bad VoIP" pretty much ended 8-10 years ago once the technology evolved.

Depending on who your provider is you are already on a VoIP connection without even realising it.

With the shutdown of the NEAXs starting in 2020 everybody in NZ will need to move to either FWA, UFB VoIP, or VoIP over copper from the cabinet or exchange which is already in use by a large number of people.

The POTS network as you know it pretty much ceases to exist from 18 months time, so there isn't really anything to actually debate. Your choices are either a VoIP over UFB or VoIP connection using copper to the cabinet or exchange which you'll be paying a $50ish per month premium for if you go with UFB for Internet.

sbiddle

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#2043135 24-Jun-2018 14:23

potscrubber:

Thanks for your angle. And in the instance of VoIP over copper to the (typical) cabinet, in a power outage, voice line is lost?

Battery backed up at the cabinet.

The main is depending on your provider and location it could well be what you're already on.