Understanding backhaul for NZ

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Understanding backhaul for NZ

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#289749 27-Sep-2021 14:32

Hi all,
Bit of a more technical question for you guys

I was talking with some friends the other day about how we deal with door knockers trying to sell those stupid broadband, power, get a free tv deals
I said iv got a good deal with my current ISP and so far no one has been able to beat the price, so when they come knocking thats what gets them to leave

My friend said he gets all technical with them asking about multiple different things like if they have static IP, CGNAT,
and he said he asks about their backhall peerings

I didnt think to ask at the time what he meant, but it came up again in my mind today and I thought I would ask

I thought most of NZ's fiber was run by chorus, unlike places like the USA where the ISP's control the fiber, and smaller ISP's share those links
Could someone explain what my friend might have meant when he asked about that?
(Also I seem to remember reading about it on a few posts on here a while ago, but didnt put two and two together till now)

Thanks in advance :)

halper86

547 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#2784904 27-Sep-2021 14:44

Simply the providers upstream connections and peering arrangements from their network.

Eg. Your house -> Chorus Network -> RSP Network -> (upstream to overseas providers or peering to national providers)

I'm no expert, but from going off what has been said on these forums, Spark and Vodafone have little to no national peering arrangements, and 2Degrees would be one of the best big providers for peering.

Example, someone with a Spark connection would be routed via Sydney to access Geekzone, whereas a 2degrees connections don't have to go via overseas and would get routed via Auckland at NZIX or the like

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pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2784909 27-Sep-2021 14:53

halper86:

Simply the providers upstream connections and peering arrangements from their network.

Eg. Your house -> Chorus Network -> RSP Network -> (upstream to overseas providers or peering to national providers)

I'm no expert, but from going off what has been said on these forums, Spark and Vodafone have little to no national peering arrangements, and 2Degrees would be one of the best big providers for peering.

Example, someone with a Spark connection would be routed via Sydney to access Geekzone, whereas a 2degrees connections don't have to go via overseas and would get routed via Auckland at NZIX or the like

So if I understand you, its the point where the ISP connects to the "Internet"?
As in their ISP? (To put it bluntly)

Kiwifruta

1423 posts

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#2784944 27-Sep-2021 15:08

By the way it’s backhaul.

Also, the RSP/ISP that offers TVs etc for signing up does peer, will provide a public IP address (for free) if requested and a static IP for $5 a month. No one could possibly expect the cheapest ISP network to be the best.

networkn

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#2784956 27-Sep-2021 15:14

Kiwifruta: No one could possibly expect the cheapest ISP network to be the best.

I do not concur with this. Orcon is consistently offering very good pricing and I have yet to have a single significant issue with them. Pricing no longer is a very reliable way to determine if you will have a good service or support experience.

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785010 27-Sep-2021 15:22

Kiwifruta: By the way it’s backhaul.

Also, the RSP/ISP that offers TVs etc for signing up does peer, will provide a public IP address (for free) if requested and a static IP for $5 a month. No one could possibly expect the cheapest ISP network to be the best.

Im with 2degrees, which my very technical friend is with (as hes the one with the peering talk)
and im very happy with them
Im not saying im with the cheapest provider, but im with one which im very happy with, had 0 issues and even got a year of free internet with them because i was one of their top users
(go though 10-15TB a month internet at home)

I only bring up the price as i have multiple discounts with 2degrees making my monthly cost (gigabit + static IP) lower then even some door knockers mid tier plans
So its a easy way to get rid of them when they see that even their mid range plan doesnt save me money, let alone their higher price one
I have had a few who are close (or in one case cheaper) but it would take more then a few $ a month savings to make me change providers at this point because of the reliability and recommendations iv had for 2deg

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785013 27-Sep-2021 15:25

pomtom44:

Kiwifruta: By the way it’s backhaul.

Also, the RSP/ISP that offers TVs etc for signing up does peer, will provide a public IP address (for free) if requested and a static IP for $5 a month. No one could possibly expect the cheapest ISP network to be the best.

Im with 2degrees, which my very technical friend is with (as hes the one with the peering talk)
and im very happy with them
Im not saying im with the cheapest provider, but im with one which im very happy with, had 0 issues and even got a year of free internet with them because i was one of their top users
(go though 10-15TB a month internet at home)

I only bring up the price as i have multiple discounts with 2degrees making my monthly cost (gigabit + static IP) lower then even some door knockers mid tier plans
So its a easy way to get rid of them when they see that even their mid range plan doesnt save me money, let alone their higher price one
I have had a few who are close (or in one case cheaper) but it would take more then a few $ a month savings to make me change providers at this point because of the reliability and recommendations iv had for 2deg

Id say its partly true
from what iv seen the cheaper isp's are cutting costs somewhere in order to save that money
most of the time its stuff that you dont see as a end user, but when I got my first internet I went with i think bigpipe, which was pretty cheap
but they had no call center for support, so when I had an issue I had to email from my phone (no internet to send the email from my PC obviously) and had to wait a few hours for them to reply,
and it took a long time for them to even figure out the issue and fix it
They had the cheaper cost because they didnt have the call center, as staff can process more emails then calls so less support staff
But it meant when i had a problem i paid for it in loss of internet for longer
2deg the one time I had an issue, I had it fixed within 20 mins over the phone

halper86

547 posts

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#2785022 27-Sep-2021 15:40

pomtom44:
So if I understand you, its the point where the ISP connects to the "Internet"?
As in their ISP? (To put it bluntly)

In its simplest form, yes

Talkiet

4787 posts

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#2785031 27-Sep-2021 16:00

Be very careful listening to a technical and extremely biased audience about the state of 'peering' here, or what it means to RSP performance. There are MUCH MUCH bigger predictors of RSP performance than peering. There are RSPs that openly and freely peer that not even the most ardent peering supporter here would claim are a good choice - and conversely there are RSPs that have limited 'peering' and when pressed, most here would concede offer very good performance.

To the OP, backhaul and peering aren't really the same thing. Backhaul is how the RSPs arrange traffic from end users to their main points of network aggregation and it's made up of several components. Essentially the larger providers usually have more decentralised arrangements that they may have built largely themselves, while the small providers might use a 3rd party to concentrate all their customers to a single central site. Both work - but the economies of scale for the larger providers do make better network designs feasible.

For Peering, history has shown it's not easy to have a balanced discussion on it. I will say it's frequently blown out of all proportion compared to it's relevance for 99% of users.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

networkn

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#2785034 27-Sep-2021 16:02

@pomtom44 I know it's pedantic, but it's doing my head in, would you mind changing the topic to Backhaul as opposed to backhall? :)

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785037 27-Sep-2021 16:08

Talkiet:

Be very careful listening to a technical and extremely biased audience about the state of 'peering' here, or what it means to RSP performance. There are MUCH MUCH bigger predictors of RSP performance than peering. There are RSPs that openly and freely peer that not even the most ardent peering supporter here would claim are a good choice - and conversely there are RSPs that have limited 'peering' and when pressed, most here would concede offer very good performance.

To the OP, backhaul and peering aren't really the same thing. Backhaul is how the RSPs arrange traffic from end users to their main points of network aggregation and it's made up of several components. Essentially the larger providers usually have more decentralised arrangements that they may have built largely themselves, while the small providers might use a 3rd party to concentrate all their customers to a single central site. Both work - but the economies of scale for the larger providers do make better network designs feasible.

For Peering, history has shown it's not easy to have a balanced discussion on it. I will say it's frequently blown out of all proportion compared to it's relevance for 99% of users.

Cheers - N

Thanks for the comments
Its like anything with tech where opinion comes into it haha
EG Apple vs windows or iphone vs andriod

I was more looking for just a overview of what it was as it was a hole in my networking knowledge, but now I have a basic understanding, even if its not fully there

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785039 27-Sep-2021 16:13

networkn:

@pomtom44 I know it's pedantic, but it's doing my head in, would you mind changing the topic to Backhaul as opposed to backhall? :)

I dont see an option to change it?

michaeln

238 posts

Master Geek

Trusted

#2785088 27-Sep-2021 17:10

You connect to the RSP via a 'first-mile' connection: copper, fibre, HFC, wireless, satellite. The first of these is legacy, frequently dating from the old NZ Post Office telephone wire.

In NZ, the fibre connection is mostly UFB (Chorus, Northpower, UFF and Enable, depending on where you are) for residential. VF also has some residential fibre.
Business fibre connections are available over UFB, but also directly from Spark, VF, Vocus and some others, in CBDs.
VF offers HFC connections in Wellington and Christchurch
Wireless (3G/4G/5G) connections (mobile, but also Fixed Wireless Access [FWA]) are available from
- 2-Degrees
- Spark
- Vodafone
Satellite (and microwave) connections are also available, usually resold as part of a RSP package.

That gets you to a handover point. From there, you need backhaul to the RSP 'head office', which is via long-haul, and very high capacity fibre optic cables. A very few RSPs have these, most of the others will purchase backhaul from the RSPs that have them, which are

Spark
Vodafone
Vocus

The quality of your Internet experience will depend on how much capacity was purchased, what sort of equipment the RSP has to run itself on, and connections between the RSPs.

The RSPs all interconnect with each other, either bilaterally, or through various peering exchanges, or via the Internet. Again, the size, quality, number and location of these interconnects will affect your Internet experience.

Then, you need international connectivity. Assuming you are not using satellite, there are three international cable providers

Southern Cross
TGA (Spark, Vodafone and Telstra)
Hawaiki

The cable gets you overseas, now you have to peer with various international providers.

The quality of your Internet depends on how much bandwidth was bought, and to what peers, and what part of the Internet is having a bad day today.

As you can see, there are quite a lot of moving parts.

There is an independent measurement of the quality of the Internet experience, per RSP, here:

https://comcom.govt.nz/regulated-industries/telecommunications/monitoring-the-telecommunications-market/monitoring-new-zealands-broadband

pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785097 27-Sep-2021 17:19

michaeln:

You connect to the RSP via a 'first-mile' connection: copper, fibre, HFC, wireless, satellite. The first of these is legacy, frequently dating from the old NZ Post Office telephone wire.

In NZ, the fibre connection is mostly UFB (Chorus, Northpower, UFF and Enable, depending on where you are) for residential. VF also has some residential fibre.
Business fibre connections are available over UFB, but also directly from Spark, VF, Vocus and some others, in CBDs.
VF offers HFC connections in Wellington and Christchurch
Wireless (3G/4G/5G) connections (mobile, but also Fixed Wireless Access [FWA]) are available from

2-Degrees
Spark
Vodafone
Satellite (and microwave) connections are also available, usually resold as part of a RSP package.
That gets you to a handover point. From there, you need backhaul to the RSP 'head office', which is via long-haul, and very high capacity fibre optic cables. A very few RSPs have these, most of the others will purchase backhaul from the RSPs that have them, which are

Spark
Vodafone
Vocus
The quality of your Internet experience will depend on how much capacity was purchased, what sort of equipment the RSP has to run itself on, and connections between the RSPs.

The RSPs all interconnect with each other, either bilaterally, or through various peering exchanges, or via the Internet. Again, the size, quality, number and location of these interconnects will affect your Internet experience.

Then, you need international connectivity. Assuming you are not using satellite, there are three international cable providers

Southern Cross
TGA (Spark, Vodafone and Telstra)
Hawaiki
The cable gets you overseas, now you have to peer with various international providers.

The quality of your Internet depends on how much bandwidth was bought, and to what peers, and what part of the Internet is having a bad day today.

As you can see, there are quite a lot of moving parts.

There is an independent measurement of the quality of the Internet experience, per RSP, here:

https://comcom.govt.nz/regulated-industries/telecommunications/monitoring-the-telecommunications-market/monitoring-new-zealands-broadband

Ah, a perfect explanation
I think i was getting mixed up with chorus owning most of the "public" fiber in NZ
And other countries where the ISP owns the fiber EG USA
And just couldnt make the link in my head as to why we needed peering and such if the infrastructure was mostly 1 company
Where i was thinking a US style where smaller ISP's would "rent" the lines from the larger ones

But yeah i didnt think about the private side of things for ISP level stuff

michaelmurfy

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#2785099 27-Sep-2021 17:22

pomtom44:
I dont see an option to change it?

I've updated it after it bugging me too :)

I'm not going to get into yet another discussion about peering. Just note also there are providers happy to peer and one that is happy to do it, at a cost comparable to what it costs for international bandwidth: https://twitter.com/jessearcher/status/1245160116527087618

I've got a general guide here too: https://murfy.nz/2018/02/06/picking-the-right-isp/

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pomtom44

128 posts

Master Geek

#2785116 27-Sep-2021 18:04

michaelmurfy:

pomtom44:
I dont see an option to change it?

I've updated it after it bugging me too :)

I'm not going to get into yet another discussion about peering. Just note also there are providers happy to peer and one that is happy to do it, at a cost comparable to what it costs for international bandwidth: https://twitter.com/jessearcher/status/1245160116527087618

I've got a general guide here too: https://murfy.nz/2018/02/06/picking-the-right-isp/

Quick read of your guide and most of what you have put is my view on things as well so good to know :)
and yeah i was just looking for a more overview idea of what it is
now i know i can start doing my own research into it more about the more technical side of things
Unless you have some good resources you can point me to for more info?