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  # 456685 8-Apr-2011 11:10
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I would say that it is the type of contract that attracts the cowboys.

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  # 456688 8-Apr-2011 11:14
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mattrsk: well if everyone was prepared to pay a reasonable sum for a reasonable service, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 
 
 
 


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  # 456689 8-Apr-2011 11:16
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networkn: mattrsk: well if everyone was prepared to pay a reasonable sum for a reasonable service, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


Too true!

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  # 456694 8-Apr-2011 11:23
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networkn: mattrsk: well if everyone was prepared to pay a reasonable sum for a reasonable service, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


Absolutely correct. I work for a building controls company and we offer a comprehensive range of solutions -from VERY basic to highly complex highly integrated solutions. One of the main complaints we get is "we were expecting a higher spec solution" however the spec which everyone priced to specified solution which isn't as effective.

You price to do a specified job. If you price to do a better job you don't win the work. Contracting is all about meeting the terms of the contract, not providing the best possible solution.

In this case if Sky specified that a better quality install was done then the contractor would have to meet the spec. Sky doesn't so the contractors don't. 

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  # 456696 8-Apr-2011 11:27
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I think the other factor here that the OP isn't taking into account the massive variance from job to job. You won't know until you arrive what is going to be asked of you, what the clients expectations are and what the environment will be. Sky has to be able to provide contractors with a spec that applies to 95% of the scenario's which means catering to the lowest common denominator.



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  # 456782 8-Apr-2011 15:45
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What I am trying to say here is that my plan would have not only been able to be done yesterday because he wouldn't have had to get on the "slippery" roof and it also would have used less cable BUT I felt that the contractor just wanted to finish for the day and didn't want to do my install because he was too lazy and just wanted to go home.

But instead he rescheduled and I now have to go buy the cable myself and other parts I might need and run the internal cables myself from the second room to the Sky dish outside so that the lazy bugga can just come back put the splitter in and give me my MySky box.

How frustrating.

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  # 456802 8-Apr-2011 17:03
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networkn: mattrsk: well if everyone was prepared to pay a reasonable sum for a reasonable service, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


Unless you have it done privately , you dont have much choice.

Sky want to control / oversee the whole operation ,same business model as Foxtel, Dish network.
Same load of complaints.

IMHO if they had structured it like Sky in the UK  whereby you purchase your decoder from
the UK equivalent of Harvey Normam, then you ring an installation company of your choice
to install it.

[Moderator edit (MF): please follow the FUG, and don't call companies "funny" names".]



 
 
 
 


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  # 456820 8-Apr-2011 18:34
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Got this from skytv's website:

Joining fee and the first month's subscription are payable to the technician at the time of installation. Multi-dwelling units may incur additional installation costs. All installations have external cabling only.

http://www.skytv.co.nz/MY-SKY-HDi-Additional-Conditions.aspx?art_id=10932

We will, as soon as reasonably practicable, arrange for an employee or contractor to supply, deliver and install the Equipment at the HOME. We are not obliged, during the installation of the Equipment, to run cabling within wall cavities. You will pay a joining/installation fee to our employee or contractor, as determined by us and/or our employee or contractor.

http://skytv.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/536


It's a shame you can't just pay skytv extra to have internal cabling done. I'm going to email skytv about this. They should update their order form so people can choose either internal or external cabling.

Bit off topic but what payment options can you pay the technician on site with when they require payment for the joining fee and first months subscription?



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  # 456899 8-Apr-2011 23:58
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bnapi: Got this from skytv's website:

Joining fee and the first month's subscription are payable to the technician at the time of installation. Multi-dwelling units may incur additional installation costs. All installations have external cabling only.

http://www.skytv.co.nz/MY-SKY-HDi-Additional-Conditions.aspx?art_id=10932

We will, as soon as reasonably practicable, arrange for an employee or contractor to supply, deliver and install the Equipment at the HOME. We are not obliged, during the installation of the Equipment, to run cabling within wall cavities. You will pay a joining/installation fee to our employee or contractor, as determined by us and/or our employee or contractor.

http://skytv.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/536


It's a shame you can't just pay skytv extra to have internal cabling done. I'm going to email skytv about this. They should update their order form so people can choose either internal or external cabling.

Bit off topic but what payment options can you pay the technician on site with when they require payment for the joining fee and first months subscription?


I've never heard of the part about paying the contractor the joining fee and first month's subscription. Wonder if they take credit card... lol. 

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  # 456912 9-Apr-2011 02:34
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I wonder how often cabling for TV etc gets thought about when someone has a new house designed and built.

When my Uncle was building his house he asked me what I thought would be the best way for phone and tv.

I told him to get a cat5 and an RG6 run from a central point in the garage to each room. That way you can have what you want, where you want it, and never have to run cables.





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  # 456914 9-Apr-2011 06:22
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lonney: I wonder how often cabling for TV etc gets thought about when someone has a new house designed and built.

When my Uncle was building his house he asked me what I thought would be the best way for phone and tv.

I told him to get a cat5 and an RG6 run from a central point in the garage to each room. That way you can have what you want, where you want it, and never have to run cables.




My mates house is about 5years old now and they have a central point in the garage and run network and T.V to every room. 

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  # 456929 9-Apr-2011 08:02
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Handle9: They're contractors who work on a fixed price per job, not on hourly rate. I don't think that they even get to make a margin on parts, they get free issued by Sky.

This is a disgusting practice in all industries that there is an hourly rate plus a large margin on supplied parts.  So the more parts supplied would mean the more money you make.

If Sky pay contractors an hourly rate they open themselves up to abuse from installers adding extra time to jobs.  A fixed price means the job gets done ASAP.

Agree, paying extra for internal cabling would be great.  But there are so many building styles.  Perhaps the installer can quote directly to the customer, but that screws up the next job scheduled for him.




You can never have enough Volvos!




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  # 456932 9-Apr-2011 08:10
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Niel:
Handle9: They're contractors who work on a fixed price per job, not on hourly rate. I don't think that they even get to make a margin on parts, they get free issued by Sky.

This is a disgusting practice in all industries that there is an hourly rate plus a large margin on supplied parts.  So the more parts supplied would mean the more money you make.


There was a positive point about the contractor that came out to our house, Sky said we needed a modulator but in fact we didn't need one at all. If modulators cost extra he saved us on that.



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  # 457076 9-Apr-2011 20:33
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Went out today and bought some RG6 cable, splitter, connectors, and some tools for the job. Should be interesting when the sky guy comes back and all he has to do is plug the boxes in... Wonder what he will say. :)

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  # 457085 9-Apr-2011 21:09
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Niel: This is a disgusting practice in all industries that there is an hourly rate plus a large margin on supplied parts.  So the more parts supplied would mean the more money you make.


There are 2 factors with this:
1) If you have to carry the warranty for supplied parts you need to make a margin on them. If they fail you don't (generally) get to claim for consequential damages from the supplier (we certainly contract out of them). An example of this is if an installer runs cable that the insulation breaks down on. Generally the supplier will replace the product under warranty but the installer still has to go and replace the cable on his own time - the supplier won't generally pay for this. This business risk means that you should make a margin on parts.

You also generally buy the parts on credit and install them. If your client doesn't pay you for them then you still have to pay your supplier. Once again this risk means that you should make a margin to compensate you for this.

You may find that disgusting but in business you need to make enough money to cover for these sort of events - and they do happen. 

2) A large number of customers fixate on hourly rate. If one contractors hourly rate is $50 per hour and the others is $60 per hour a lot of customers will choose the one with the lower hourly rate. They won't ask what the mark up on parts is and so will often end up paying more on the overall job. 

Once again the contractor has to make a buck to cover his business risk - and make a profit (hopefully). The customer is fixated on the hourly rate not on the value of the job - both quality of work and overall price.

I get in this situation alot. We charge a very high hourly rate compared to our competition -  over 30% higher. However as the manufacturer we have proprietary tools which enable us to work a lot faster and sell our own products for less than the competition does. We loose work to some customers because our hourly rate is high but the cost on an overall job is generally less.

Niel:

If Sky pay contractors an hourly rate they open themselves up to abuse from installers adding extra time to jobs.  A fixed price means the job gets done ASAP.



The other side of this means that the job is done to the minimum passable standard. It means that if there was a way to do the job better the client doesn't get the option of getting a nicer job because the contractor hasn't got time to do it.

They will do the minimum they can get away with and have it work because they have to save time on the easy jobs so they've got time to do the hard jobs.

Obviously it's not a perfect world and everyone wants to get a cheap, really nice job but generally you get a cheap job or a nice job, not both.

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