TiVo Service ending on 31 October 2017

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# 1742945 17-Mar-2017 20:03

blakamin:

Maxcat:

Here is my column, a first shot at describing the Tivo Trap.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/90531598/max-christoffersen-invisibles-pull-the-plug-in-tale-of-electronic-woe

Good to see you got the standard "Aussie Bashing" in...

SMH...

I didn't read it as 'bashing'. However they do seem to be treating the Aussies better, as they actually offered some compensation in the form of a discount off a new box. Hybrid has also been participating in the Whirlpool forum, including HybridDan who used to participate. But they don't appear to have communicated with NZ customers at all here since sending that email. Not unless I have missed one of Hybrids posts in the 35 pages here.

gregmcc

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# 1742970 17-Mar-2017 20:11

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minimoke:

I intend chasing Telecom (Spark) under the CGA about this. I had thought I might leave it closer to October. Instead I think I might give them the courtesy of asking how they intend resolve the matter when it arrives. A job for me for the weekend.

Me as well, was going to go down the TDR track 1st

mattwnz

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# 1742977 17-Mar-2017 20:23

gregmcc:

minimoke:

I intend chasing Telecom (Spark) under the CGA about this. I had thought I might leave it closer to October. Instead I think I might give them the courtesy of asking how they intend resolve the matter when it arrives. A job for me for the weekend.

Me as well, was going to go down the TDR track 1st

Does it cost ISPs to have something taken to the TDR? I guess it only goes to the TDR if it reaches a deadlock?

For some reason retailers seem to think that products have to only last 5 years. I suspect this is why Tivos own email made a special point to mention that everyone should have had the service for at least 5 years. But the CGA actually doesn't specify a time limit for how long something should last, and for good reason. It depends on how much use it has had, the quality of the product etc. So maybe Australias laws are different regarding how long a product like this should last for, at the time they were still selling Tivos?

blakamin

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# 1742980 17-Mar-2017 20:29

mattwnz:

blakamin:

Maxcat:

Here is my column, a first shot at describing the Tivo Trap.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/90531598/max-christoffersen-invisibles-pull-the-plug-in-tale-of-electronic-woe

Good to see you got the standard "Aussie Bashing" in...

SMH...

I didn't read it as 'bashing'. However they do seem to be treating the Aussies better, as they actually offered some compensation in the form of a discount off a new box. Hybrid has also been participating in the Whirlpool forum, including HybridDan who used to participate. But they don't appear to have communicated with NZ customers at all here since sending that email. Not unless I have missed one of Hybrids posts in the 35 pages here.

BS... it was bashing pure and simple.

On October 31 the TiVo plug will be pulled by Hybrid TV, an Australian company ("no surprises there")

A discount is on a new box because FetchTV made a deal... Do you get Fetch? No... What are Hybrid meant to do? THEY HAVE NO MONEY!

And I'm pretty sure HybridDan is pretty effing busy, on whirlpool, dealing with idiots, and looking for a new job. There's not that many TiVo customers in NZ that haven't accepted that it's over... What is he meant to tell you here that you don't know?

tdgeek

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# 1742982 17-Mar-2017 20:35

mattwnz: Great opinion piece. Pity the media haven't picked up the story and investigated exactly what happened. I mean why was Hybrid was advertising it as having an EPG for life of the box, when that when they only had a 10 year license?

The box has a 10 year life based on the licence? But your right, it is a tad misleading.

tdgeek

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# 1742990 17-Mar-2017 20:39

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Maxcat:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

Yes we are.

The problem I think is that few know it or know what you mean.

Even fewer product providers will detail who holds the turn key (and under what conditions and time frame) to their device.

So the much larger problem than TIVO is trying to identify who is in control of whom and for how long for the product or software you want.

In a way it is linked (at a stretch) to the story about the guy who took the car seller to court this week or last about the cost of his car key...and won.

IMHO the issue is free. Free TV. Thats a harder act to follow, than Pay TV. If TIVO came out as a Freeview box with a $5 per month sub, no one would use it. Pay TV has leverage, but FTA STB's like TIVO are so reliant on free viewing that it can easily fall from favour, viability wise.

tdgeek

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# 1742991 17-Mar-2017 20:41

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gregmcc:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?

nova

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# 1742992 17-Mar-2017 20:42

The series 3 Tivos support this protocol:

https://www.tivo.com/assets/images/abouttivo/resources/downloads/brochures/TiVo_TCP_Network_Remote_Control_Protocol.pdf

I tested it on mine, and it works, but is very clunky. It should be possible to build a mobile app that displayed an EPG, and allowed you to program in a manual recording on the tivo based on the EPG entries. However you couldn't name the recordings very easily, so they would be annoying to playback.

Not sure it would be worth the effort, but it might be an easier path than trying to feed a hacked epg into the box itself.

tdgeek

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# 1742993 17-Mar-2017 20:43

mattwnz:

old3eyes:

Good article max. I'm in the same boat as you with two perfectly good TiVos which will become set top boxes after October 31st. Would love to see someone else here pickup the license and sell new boxes even with a monthly maintenance fee.

Spark would be the ideal company (maybe with Lightbox) to pickit up, considering they were also the ones retailing them in NZ. Maybe if they get enough people writing in to complain about it, they may do something about it. The problem is that many people with tivos probably don't know that their box will be junk in a few month, because the announcement was only emailed. Many people would have changed their email address since then or had them setup by someone else. So this may only start making headlines once it actually shuts down, and then it will probably be too late to do much about it.

IF, the ability to alter it, update it, carry on the TIVO usefulness was allowed. That seems to be the issue. Hybrid are bust, TIVO doesnt seem to be interested.

tdgeek

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# 1742997 17-Mar-2017 20:45

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Maxcat:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

One that caught me, was Sony (and I understand Panasonic may also have been affected) with a YouTube TV app that stopped working.

YouTube had updated its TV app. That update rendered my TV YouTube playback redundant.

So the App that shows on my Sony won't play and Sony won't update the software - so it's no YouTube and buy another Sony TV (and Blu-Ray player - both were affected by the YouTube update).

The size of the company is no guarantee of ongoing service supply.

Apple TV has also removed a bunch of Apps from the ATV3.

Any new TV I buy in future will NOT be a smart TV due to the updating merry go round that leaves the end user high and dry..just like TIVO.

Sadly that right. Hopeless for buyers. But also hopeless for TV sellers, it would be a huge drain to freely support old, old, old TV's

tdgeek

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# 1743001 17-Mar-2017 20:51

blakamin:

Maxcat:

Here is my column, a first shot at describing the Tivo Trap.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/90531598/max-christoffersen-invisibles-pull-the-plug-in-tale-of-electronic-woe

Good to see you got the standard "Aussie Bashing" in...

SMH...

Yep. Tivo is not an Oz company, nor did TIVO or Hybrid expect it to fail. It did fail, no one buys anything on it, but your right. However, Oz somebodies are trying to make it work.

mattwnz

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# 1743002 17-Mar-2017 20:52

tdgeek:

gregmcc:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?

Consumer has a table for expected life of products under the CGA, but their is a range depending on the value/quality of it and the use it has had. But Tivos are quite high quality as they did retail for nearly $1000 when Spark were selling them.

gregmcc

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# 1743004 17-Mar-2017 20:55

tdgeek:

gregmcc:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?

If the unit died because of a hardware failure fair enough, life is up, but when the "lifetime service" is removed it severally impacts the usefulness of the product and it is no longer fit for it's intended purpose

tdgeek

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# 1743014 17-Mar-2017 21:04

mattwnz:

tdgeek:

gregmcc:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?

Consumer has a table for expected life of products under the CGA, but their is a range depending on the value/quality of it and the use it has had. But Tivos are quite high quality as they did retail for nearly $1000 when Spark were selling them.

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software.

mattwnz

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# 1743105 17-Mar-2017 23:13

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

tdgeek:

gregmcc:

mattwnz:

robfish:

Unfortunately we are vulnerable to this happening to any software which is not open source.

I seems lmost all these smart type devices being sold these days that need a remote connection are proprietary. Potentially apple devices are the same, but they don't remove essential features that will render a device useless, just because it has reached a certain age.

In this case it appears Hybrid always only a 10 year license to provide Tivo to Australia, and by the time they sold it in NZ, it was down to 7-8 years remaining. So IMO they should have stamped on the box that the box expired in 2017, so buyer knew that it had a time limited life to it. I would have thought that would have been required under NZ laws? In normal cases you would expect the parent company who owns the license to step in after the license expires, but Tivo US don't appear to be wanting to do that.

Got to remember under NZ law (consumer guarantees act) you can also chase the retailer..........most cases it Telecom (AKA Spark) and near the end of retail sales it was also Noel Lemmings, both of these companies are still around so the legal obligation falls on them to repair/replace/refund........

But how long is the life? If you had a Panny PVR that was near 10 years old would you get CGA coverage?

Consumer has a table for expected life of products under the CGA, but their is a range depending on the value/quality of it and the use it has had. But Tivos are quite high quality as they did retail for nearly $1000 when Spark were selling them.

Yep, I agree, but 10 years for a device with a HDD? Ive had Panny DVRs since the $1800 one I got. Its still goes I think, not a great deal of use, but its SD only. I cant claim on that. The TIVO issue is quite unique, there are many takes n it that you can say, forget it its over, and others where you can say, its not over. The boxes are not going to fail on 1 Nov, they will work exactly as they have done. Play, record, and so on. The box has an ongoing life. But the licence doesnt, and thats part of the software. I can see lawyers in a trial one arguing the box (hardware) the other arguing the software.

Harddrives can potentially last a long time. I have a PC from the late 80's and the harddrive still words fine. But hard drives could be seen as a consumable part that can be replaced. eg if your computers harddrive fails you just take it into a repair agent to get it repaired, and they switch out the harddrive, you don't replace the entire computer. Also manufacturers are required to have spare parts reasonably available for the service life, so that products can be repaired. Just because a harddrive dies, doesn't mean that the product has reached teh end of it's life. If that was the case anyone who purchased a windows OEM license would have to buy a new license everytime their harddrive failed. Instead the license to tied to the motherboard, and that seems to be industry practice when software is tied to hardware.

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