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273 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744204 20-Mar-2017 07:51
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mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Tivo is proprietary, everyone else, and there are many use standard Freeview. While there are only two brands that I know of that do FV PVR's, many do FV decoders, its standard, a NZ standard. If you use a proprietary device, that is American, licenced to an AustraliaNZ  company, that in itself is a risk. 

 

 

 

 

Yes there is a risk. Maybe there needs to be more consumer protection for this sort of thing, with revised laws, as this sort of thing is happening more and more with 'cloud' based products. I have been affected by it at 4 times now in recent times. For two of the products, I returned to the retailer and got either refund or a replacement product. One product was a weather station which grabbed data from around the world, and pushed it to an LCD display. They decided to switch off their weather server, and it stopped working. The overseas manufacturer was offering people discount off a new model as compo, but that offer had since expired.
For the third product, a Sony Smart TV, I decided to live with it, because I didn't use the smart functions enough, and the TV is still usable with my Tivo (a little bit ironic), and chromecast . The Tivo is the latest affected by this, and more and more people are going to have problems like this in the future. The best companies though don't let this sort of thing happen. Old apple products could suffer the same problem , but apple keep supporting them, even though they aren't being paid for this. eg As far as I am aware the newest version of itunes will still work with the original apple ipods. I would imagine the uproar if older models of iphone were rendered unusable. Although it will happen eventually to very old models when the 2G network is switched off, (although that would be caused by a third party provider and not apple).

 

It is a little like these 'lifetime guarantees' being offered for products,eg saucepans, when you often find in the small print it only applies for the 'expected life of the product, and they don't expect saucepans to last more than 15 years. etc. 

 

 

This to me is the central issue and it is far wider than TIVO.

 

It is likely that come November 1st unless Dr Tivo and the Whirlpool Oz crew find a way, that all TIVO will become redundant and if you use them you will be bugged to death by the incessant reminder to 'phone home'.

 

It will drive you nuts. I used my spare TIVO at my beach bach over summer to replay saved programmes with no internet, so I have a taste of what is to come. You will turn it off.

 

So the outcome here is to make TIVO the poster child of the scenario you have painted. It won't save TIVO, but it may help consumers understand what is happening around them with claimed life time product and service support and how it is a slow drive down to Tivo-ville where they take the keys away.

 

It will happen across many other products and services, because today, it is the industry standard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


4699 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1744206 20-Mar-2017 07:54
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Maybe I should have sued Nokia back in 2014 when Microsoft turned off the ability to stream radio on my old Nokia E5.

 
 
 
 


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  # 1744211 20-Mar-2017 08:16
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quickymart: Maybe I should have sued Nokia back in 2014 when Microsoft turned off the ability to stream radio on my old Nokia E5.

 

 

 

Many years ago i use to play an online game called city of heroes, i purchase the game etc but years later they removed the servers which now makes the game useless.  Maybe I can go for a refund as well............

 

 

 

*rolls eyes*

 

 


273 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744213 20-Mar-2017 08:27
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I think the issue is related to customers being informed.

 

That to me is what happened with TIVO.

 

I didn't know a third party held the balance between it working or not.

 

I had assumed that when product support ended I was in the same place as I was with any other piece of hardware.

 

But with TIVO, the company is still there, it released new hardware last year, the brand is still alive in the US and because it was TIVO I had assumed the box would function like any other Freeview box purchased at the same time.

 

So for me this is about helping others understand your gaming story, the TIVO story and growing numbers of other examples of the life time maps upgrade issue.

 

We've all been stung (I own 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players..)

 

This one is different for me because TIVO has done nothing while their product and brand value sinks from sight in a small market which is expendable to them.

 

Had I know about Hybrid, I may have been a bit more cautious about my purchase of TIVO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1744216 20-Mar-2017 08:34
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minimoke:

 

tdgeek: 

 

 

 

They have already been posted. 

 

 

I understand that - but they were not necessarily the terms agreed at the time the Tivo was purchased by the consumer and provided by the supplier

 

 

What evidence do you have to suggest they're different?

 

You clearly didn't read the terms and conditions displayed when you activated your Tivo service. As I've said numerous times if you didn't agree with these you should have immediately returned your box for a refund as the law entitles you do to.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1744217 20-Mar-2017 08:42
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It would seem that no matter what people say here OP is mad about getting something.

 

If OP really thinks they have a case then you can file papers https://disputestribunal.govt.nz/how-to-make-a-claim/

 

 

 

I can tell you this now however you will pushing "something" up a hill with a stick and it will end up costing you a lot more in money and time to get the paper work together and not just quoting parts of the CGA or fair trading act to try and win the case.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1744218 20-Mar-2017 08:42
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Maxcat:

 

I think the issue is related to customers being informed.

 

That to me is what happened with TIVO.

 

I didn't know a third party held the balance between it working or not.

 

I had assumed that when product support ended I was in the same place as I was with any other piece of hardware.

 

But with TIVO, the company is still there, it released new hardware last year, the brand is still alive in the US and because it was TIVO I had assumed the box would function like any other Freeview box purchased at the same time.

 

So for me this is about helping others understand your gaming story, the TIVO story and growing numbers of other examples of the life time maps upgrade issue.

 

We've all been stung (I own 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players..)

 

This one is different for me because TIVO has done nothing while their product and brand value sinks from sight in a small market which is expendable to them.

 

Had I know about Hybrid, I may have been a bit more cautious about my purchase of TIVO.

 

 

Once again the relationship between different companies was very clear to anybody who read the Terms and Conditions they agreed to when they activated their product. If there is one lesson for people out of this, maybe it's the fact they should do this when they're presented with terms and conditions. The fact Tivo was tied to an EPG service and not a Freeview certified product was something that was made pretty clear.

 

With the amount of media attention that Tivo has received over the years I'm surprised you aren't aware of Hybrid. TVNZ's investment into Hybrid was very significant and was headline news on a huge number of occasions, especially when their multimillion investment was written down to $0 by 2011, and they then exited the company. Likewise the investment by 7 has been big news especially by 2013 when Hybrid essentially pulled out of selling any hardware.

 

 


 
 
 
 




724 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744221 20-Mar-2017 08:50
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Oki said i would look st tsand cs. So i have had a look at the tivo service terms.

These were last updated on 1 march 2017 - yes that is the correct date

Under termination of service there is no mention of 31 october 2017.

The supply service is essentially never ending barring tivo ceasing the service in order to comply with legal obligations or court orders.

There is no mention at all of termination of service.

273 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744222 20-Mar-2017 08:53
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sbiddle:

 

Maxcat:

 

I think the issue is related to customers being informed.

 

That to me is what happened with TIVO.

 

I didn't know a third party held the balance between it working or not.

 

I had assumed that when product support ended I was in the same place as I was with any other piece of hardware.

 

But with TIVO, the company is still there, it released new hardware last year, the brand is still alive in the US and because it was TIVO I had assumed the box would function like any other Freeview box purchased at the same time.

 

So for me this is about helping others understand your gaming story, the TIVO story and growing numbers of other examples of the life time maps upgrade issue.

 

We've all been stung (I own 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players..)

 

This one is different for me because TIVO has done nothing while their product and brand value sinks from sight in a small market which is expendable to them.

 

Had I know about Hybrid, I may have been a bit more cautious about my purchase of TIVO.

 

 

Once again the relationship between different companies was very clear to anybody who read the Terms and Conditions they agreed to when they activated their product. If there is one lesson for people out of this, maybe it's the fact they should do this when they're presented with terms and conditions. The fact Tivo was tied to an EPG service and not a Freeview certified product was something that was made pretty clear.

 

With the amount of media attention that Tivo has received over the years I'm surprised you aren't aware of Hybrid. TVNZ's investment into Hybrid was very significant and was headline news on a huge number of occasions, especially when their multimillion investment was written down to $0 by 2011, and they then exited the company. Likewise the investment by 7 has been big news especially by 2013 when Hybrid essentially pulled out of selling any hardware.

 

 

 

 

I became aware of Hybrid AFTER purchase not before.

 

My son was one of the first BETA testers and we got on board shortly afterwards around 2009.

 

However, you may well be right that I missed the information about licensing. But my point here is two fold.

 

 

 

1) The only reason given BY TIVO to customers to shut down is because all good things must come to an end (that is simply patronising crap).

 

2) The licence closure does not affect TIVO. TIVO is still functioning.

 

They could take up the licence on our behalf and negotiate with other third parties but customers have been left in the dark asking here and in Australia. It is not like this is HD-DVD where Toshiba lost to Sony and Toshiba old customers exactly that. Why is TIVO not working over the next 6 months and./or helping the Australian crew to find a solution that does not impact negatively on their brand?

 

So look I'll suck it up and accept that TIVO is dead in NZ and OZ. 

 

But 'all good things must come to an end'..as the rationale?

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1744234 20-Mar-2017 08:59
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minimoke: Oki said i would look st tsand cs. So i have had a look at the tivo service terms.

These were last updated on 1 march 2017 - yes that is the correct date

Under termination of service there is no mention of 31 october 2017.

The supply service is essentially never ending barring tivo ceasing the service in order to comply with legal obligations or court orders.

There is no mention at all of termination of service.

 

Like I said, if you think you have a case and not happy with the email from the "supplier" of the service then file paper work with the DT.  You might get lucky and the "supplier" might want to just settle the issue without wasting their time and money on trying to fight this.

 

Just don't be asking for $5000 because you think you have damages. 

 

My personal view on this having been there done that is that you won't have a case and just wasting everyone's time.  I would think the "supplier" will see it this way and just throw you money to make you go away unless someone is really bored there and wants to kill any other action that others might bring.

 

 

 

Just remember they will get a copy of your paper work however you may not get a copy of theirs so you have to have everything in order and be ready for surprises.


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  # 1744236 20-Mar-2017 09:02
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Maxcat:

 

sbiddle:

 

Maxcat:

 

I think the issue is related to customers being informed.

 

That to me is what happened with TIVO.

 

I didn't know a third party held the balance between it working or not.

 

I had assumed that when product support ended I was in the same place as I was with any other piece of hardware.

 

But with TIVO, the company is still there, it released new hardware last year, the brand is still alive in the US and because it was TIVO I had assumed the box would function like any other Freeview box purchased at the same time.

 

So for me this is about helping others understand your gaming story, the TIVO story and growing numbers of other examples of the life time maps upgrade issue.

 

We've all been stung (I own 2 Toshiba HD-DVD players..)

 

This one is different for me because TIVO has done nothing while their product and brand value sinks from sight in a small market which is expendable to them.

 

Had I know about Hybrid, I may have been a bit more cautious about my purchase of TIVO.

 

 

Once again the relationship between different companies was very clear to anybody who read the Terms and Conditions they agreed to when they activated their product. If there is one lesson for people out of this, maybe it's the fact they should do this when they're presented with terms and conditions. The fact Tivo was tied to an EPG service and not a Freeview certified product was something that was made pretty clear.

 

With the amount of media attention that Tivo has received over the years I'm surprised you aren't aware of Hybrid. TVNZ's investment into Hybrid was very significant and was headline news on a huge number of occasions, especially when their multimillion investment was written down to $0 by 2011, and they then exited the company. Likewise the investment by 7 has been big news especially by 2013 when Hybrid essentially pulled out of selling any hardware.

 

 

 

 

I became aware of Hybrid AFTER purchase not before.

 

My son was one of the first BETA testers and we got on board shortly afterwards around 2009.

 

However, you may well be right that I missed the information about licensing. But my point here is two fold.

 

 

 

1) The only reason given BY TIVO to customers to shut down is because all good things must come to an end (that is simply patronising crap).

 

2) The licence closure does not affect TIVO. TIVO is still functioning.

 

They could take up the licence on our behalf and negotiate with other third parties but customers have been left in the dark asking here and in Australia. It is not like this is HD-DVD where Toshiba lost to Sony and Toshiba old customers exactly that. Why is TIVO not working over the next 6 months and./or helping the Australian crew to find a solution that does not impact negatively on their brand?

 

So look I'll suck it up and accept that TIVO is dead in NZ and OZ. 

 

But 'all good things must come to an end'..as the rationale?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I see it, the product failed. It sold few, I asusme very very few every bought any paid content. We can't expect businesses to go and and lose and lose money year after year if the venture fails. I am sure everyone on here would exit a venture that was losing money. Hybrid have itself sucked it up, in order to comply with consumer law. The villian is Tivo, the supposedly international brand, who it seems are not bothered. They could at least rescue the customers, charge $5 to $10 per month for the EPG to cover costs, and leave it at that. This means Tivo will never come back to NZ


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  # 1744240 20-Mar-2017 09:10
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Maxcat:

 

 

 

1) The only reason given BY TIVO to customers to shut down is because all good things must come to an end (that is simply patronising crap).

 

2) The licence closure does not affect TIVO. TIVO is still functioning.

 

They could take up the licence on our behalf and negotiate with other third parties but customers have been left in the dark asking here and in Australia. It is not like this is HD-DVD where Toshiba lost to Sony and Toshiba old customers exactly that. Why is TIVO not working over the next 6 months and./or helping the Australian crew to find a solution that does not impact negatively on their brand?

 

So look I'll suck it up and accept that TIVO is dead in NZ and OZ. 

 

But 'all good things must come to an end'..as the rationale?

 

 

 

 

 

Just to clarify this there has been very little said by Tivo on this. If you spent a few hours reading hundred of pages on the Whirlpool threads about this you'd know about the silence from Tivo. It's Hybrid who have made the decision to end the product that they licenced from Tivo and Hybrid who have said Tivo is effectively shutting down.

 

Yes Tivo could continue to offer the service but they're silent on the issue.

 

 


273 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744244 20-Mar-2017 09:14
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Agreed. TIVO is the villain here.

 

I thank Hybrid for trying. I think they were stuffed by many issues that were outside their control.

 

In time the marketing and supply chain of TIVO in NZ will go down as a 'how-not-to' sale story (similarly with Lightbox..) looked at by academics.

 

However what IS in control is TIVO is still operating.

 

They are just not working in the interests of NZ/Oz customers.

 

 

 

 

 

 




724 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1744250 20-Mar-2017 09:24
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tripp:

minimoke: Oki said i would look st tsand cs. So i have had a look at the tivo service terms.

These were last updated on 1 march 2017 - yes that is the correct date

Under termination of service there is no mention of 31 october 2017.

The supply service is essentially never ending barring tivo ceasing the service in order to comply with legal obligations or court orders.

There is no mention at all of termination of service.


Like I said, if you think you have a case and not happy with the email from the "supplier" of the service then file paper work with the DT.  You might get lucky and the "supplier" might want to just settle the issue without wasting their time and money on trying to fight this.


Just don't be asking for $5000 because you think you have damages. 


My personal view on this having been there done that is that you won't have a case and just wasting everyone's time.  I would think the "supplier" will see it this way and just throw you money to make you go away unless someone is really bored there and wants to kill any other action that others might bring.


 


Just remember they will get a copy of your paper work however you may not get a copy of theirs so you have to have everything in order and be ready for surprises.



The email from the supplier is worthless. The terms and conditions dated 1 march 2017 says these terms will prevail. The terms contain no mention of a 31 octobrr cease date. That makes these terms very misleading

I have never said i would be claiming $5000. That is just ridiculous. I am simply exploring my rights as a consumer for a high end device (retailed at $940 - so expectations are very high)

I look forward to the paperwork from telecom. The only terms relevant to the purchase of a tivo are the terms around the sale /purchase of the tivo. I know there are secondary terms but i suggest they are subserviant to the primary terms. I am not looking at claiming for loss of tivo service. My claim is likely to be based on the sale of a product that contsins a known but not acknowledged defect (licence expires 31 october 2017) and failure of unit to do as advertised. For a unit purchased within 5 years.

Lock him up!
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  # 1744256 20-Mar-2017 09:31
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I hope you pursue this to the end. Whether you win or not I think you do have a point and it wouldn't hurt to have this kind of thing clarified for the future. I also agree with most of the people who are saying your arguments probably won't get you anywhere but I will be interested in the outcome. Do keep us posted.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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