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715 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1746698 23-Mar-2017 22:03
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tdgeek:

 

.........You agreed to the Telecom T+C's when you accepted the purchase, which was offered to you, for a consideration, and you accepted..........

 

IMHO I am sure that the CGA will determine there is a written contract here, that is no issue. The terms are quite clear. As have been posted here a few times. 

 

 

Of course you now better than the bundle of docments i have relating to the Tivo - none of which mention Tivo T's and C's. I have already said there is reference to Freeview Terms -  but not Tivo. The document is very clear with all the points with ticks and crosses next to them. Zero, nada zilch t's and C's you keep referring to.

 

 

 

So that aside it someone assert I have agreed them it will be for them to provide that evidence. Since you weren't there at the item of purchase the best I can suggest is you stop speculating.

 

 

 

Edit -oh and the way it works is I make an offer and telcom accepts it.


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  # 1746704 23-Mar-2017 22:15
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Not quite. You were offered the Tivo and accepted it. You have an interesting interpretation of contract law.

 

Have you tried talking to the Consumer's Institute then? What do you think they would say about this?


 
 
 
 




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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1746710 23-Mar-2017 22:37
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Right 28 pages in so for anyone new to the thread hers is a summary of the situation.

 

Tivo is a world class media device, indeed the worlds most popular. When released in NZ it retailed for $920. Pretty much a high end device I reckon.

 

In December 2010 I offered to purchase from Telecom a Tivo Media device, which included advertised lifetime, no cost features such as season pass, two channel recording etc etc, broadband games,and a wireless adapter along with unmetered broadband access so i could watch the movies that were to be available on the Tivo. I also sought a replacement value (should the need arise) of the tivo set at $499. Which is good because the warranty said all this woould be free from manufacturing faults and defects.I offered them $360.

 

 

 

In order to meet their side of the bargain Telcom had to find a Tivo box supplier and a provider who could provide all those service and some other things.  To make an extra check they could meet their side they checked I had an UHF aerial installed and had a wireless or multi port modem along with a few other bits and bobs.

 

 

 

That was the sum total of our discussions. No other terms or conditions agreed

 

 

 

I handed over my $360 and they gave me my bundle.

 

 

 

I went home and activated my device. Great to see telecoms provider doing something. Even better my System information confirms the product has a life time licence.

 

 

 

As at today, and contrary to what is reflected in the current Tivo terms of use the service provider had decided to cease service. Further more they advise I send my device to a e-recycler.

 

 

 

I consider this to be quite a major defect in the agreement I had with telecom. So I am considering my options on how to remedy this situation and the Consumer Guarantees Act seems like a good starting point. Since my contract is with Telecom, and they were the supplier of the bundle to me they are the people to be talking to.


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1746749 24-Mar-2017 06:08
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gregmcc:

 

minimoke:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

"product lifetime service", Hybrid are long gone so I doubt you have read anything official recently from them (Prove me wrong and show me a recent official comment/statement)

 

 

 

 

For a start I will point you to the terms of use that were last updated 1 march 2017. see here:https://www.mytivo.co.nz/abouttivo/termsandconditions/termsofuse/

 

 

 

 

And the CGA also states that by changing the T&C's after purchase amounts to a new contract, as such I reject the new contract, refund please

 

 

As you have such an interest in pursuing this CGA claim, how about reading the several posts a few pages ago of the actual T&Cs you did agree to. My post was of the T&Cs back in 2010


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  # 1746750 24-Mar-2017 06:26
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riahon:

 

gregmcc:

 

minimoke:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

"product lifetime service", Hybrid are long gone so I doubt you have read anything official recently from them (Prove me wrong and show me a recent official comment/statement)

 

 

 

 

For a start I will point you to the terms of use that were last updated 1 march 2017. see here:https://www.mytivo.co.nz/abouttivo/termsandconditions/termsofuse/

 

 

 

 

And the CGA also states that by changing the T&C's after purchase amounts to a new contract, as such I reject the new contract, refund please

 

 

As you have such an interest in pursuing this CGA claim, how about reading the several posts a few pages ago of the actual T&Cs you did agree to. My post was of the T&Cs back in 2010

 

 

Between the next two quote marks I will paste the entire T&C's that were presented to me BEFORE I purchased the Tivo "" - that's right nothing, I was presented with advertising that clearly stated "Product lifetime service" so it's fair and reasonable to assume that's what I should be getting.

 

 

 

I have no interest in reading some T&C's others have found in other places that may apply to someone else's sale and purchase agreement, they have no relevance between the sale and purchase between me and telecom.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1746751 24-Mar-2017 06:29
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gregmcc:

 

tdgeek:

 

gregmcc:

 

Jaxson:

 

Telecom doesn't provide the service.  They can't be held responsible for the license holder opting not to renew 5 years later.  Good luck.

 

 

 

The law says otherwise - CGA. If Telecom didn't pay attention to the fine print from their supplier it doesn't give them a get out of jail free card for their legal responsibilities.

 

 

 

 

What are the legal responsibilities? To provide a working Tivo box and Hybrids service for how long? 5 years appears to be the line in the sand. The Tivo box is an 8yo device. It will have services most users for 8 years, CGA appears to have a 5 year guide, so on 1 Nov that is covered. 5 years isn't the line in the sad for everything, but Hybrid have settled on that, and not as a guess you would imagine. If CGA felt that 5 years was acceptable for the box and the service, what then? 

 

 

"product lifetime service", Hybrid are long gone so I doubt you have read anything official recently from them (Prove me wrong and show me a recent official comment/statement)

 

If a Tivo box had suffered a natural hardware failure then that would meet the end of "product lifetime service", the hardware is still fully functional as has been pointed out many, many times - this is a service issue

 

 

 

 

It is a service issue, I agree. Hybrids service. Which is seperate from the box, which is managed by Telecom as per their T+C's and HYbrid manages the service as per their T+C's.

 

Hybrid has announced the end of their service, satisfying consumer law, as per their official email. They have used the 5 year period as satisfying that. I expect the same applies to the box


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  # 1746752 24-Mar-2017 06:30
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gregmcc:

 

MikeB4:

 

when you activated your TiVo Services you did so knowing that the terms and conditions of the service apply. Those T & Cs are detailed on the page immediately following the big "Welcome" page in the TiVo book that came with your TiVo. It is not Sparks, Hybrids fault if you did not read the T&Cs 

 

 

 

 

And those T&C's also mention a product lifetime service, thanks for reminding me.

 

 

 

 

Product lifetime. The lifetime of the product. In this case, the product is the Tivo service. That product is ending its life on 31 Oct


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  # 1746753 24-Mar-2017 06:32
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gregmcc:

 

minimoke:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

"product lifetime service", Hybrid are long gone so I doubt you have read anything official recently from them (Prove me wrong and show me a recent official comment/statement)

 

 

 

 

For a start I will point you to the terms of use that were last updated 1 march 2017. see here:https://www.mytivo.co.nz/abouttivo/termsandconditions/termsofuse/

 

 

 

 

And the CGA also states that by changing the T&C's after purchase amounts to a new contract, as such I reject the new contract, refund please

 

 

I would expect any change applies to purchasers after that change? 


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715 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1747528 25-Mar-2017 12:21
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quickymart:

 

Not quite. You were offered the Tivo and accepted it. You have an interesting interpretation of contract law.

 

Have you tried talking to the Consumer's Institute then? What do you think they would say about this?

 

 

I have looked on Ministry of Business and Innovation website and this is what they say

 

"Making a contract involves three basic steps

 

There must be:

 

  • an offer you make as the buyer: ‘I'd like to buy this jersey’
  • the seller accepts the offer: ‘That'll be $59.95.’
  • you both exchange something of value, called ‘consideration’. The seller agrees to sell the jersey. The buyer agrees to pay the price of the jersey.

So the contract is formed at the time when acceptance of your offer is communicated to the seller. You must also both intend to make a legally binding contract."

 

 

 

So to recap

 

  • I make an offer as the buyer: ‘I'd like to buy this Tivo Media Device on a no periodic subscription basis and Wireless Network adapter with all the tivo features advertised and freeview and broadband games etc’
  • Telecom accepts the offer: ‘That'll be $360. with a replacement price of $499 and a warranty that covers manufacturing faults and defects but excludes moisture and impact damage’ (It is I think implied that I wont have to pay a subscription - confirmed by the fact I didnt. Also confirmed that on activation of the service which was purchased as part of the deal I get a Product Lifetime Service - as evidenced by my system information screen)
  • We both exchange something of value, called ‘consideration’. Telecom agrees to sell the Tivo with all the features. I agree to pay the $360 for the Tivo with all the features.

 

 

I'm going to give posters the courtesy of a link that is evidence to the point I'm trying to make. Perhaps you could give me the same courtesy in any responses.

 

 

 

https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/get-guidance/contracts-quotes-and-estimates/forming-contracts-and-agreements/forming-contracts-and-agreements/




715 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1747532 25-Mar-2017 12:34
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Now we come back to the issue of Terms and Conditions

 

Again from MBIE

 

"Express terms

 

Are terms that are clearly stated and agreed when the contract is made. Express terms may be agreed verbally, written into the contract, or stated on a receipt or a notice at the counter."

 

When I bought the Tivo they did not read out all those terms that people are referencing. We have no written contract - it is not attached to the bundle of documents provided at the time. The Bundle does include all the "Provisioning" so this woudl have been a good place to have them. Nor was there a notice on the Counter.

 

I do however have a receipt which makes zero reference to Tivo conditions and explicitly says "The Warranty covers manufacturing Faults and Defects"

 

Here is my reference: https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/get-guidance/contracts-quotes-and-estimates/forming-contracts-and-agreements/terms-and-conditions-of-contracts/

 

What does remain moot is defining "defect".  In my opinion, as a consumer, I think it is reasonable to define a defect as a failure to do something that was paid for. 


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  # 1747557 25-Mar-2017 13:23
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I thought this thread was locked. I dont really consider this an update, we already know that your views of T+C's differ to many here, as does your view of the service as distinct from the hardware. I assumed an update was that you have lodged your case with the CGA or DT.


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Uber Geek
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  # 1747565 25-Mar-2017 13:39
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I was thinking that too. I reckon the next update should be when a claim has been lodged.



715 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1747566 25-Mar-2017 13:41
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tdgeek:

 

I thought this thread was locked. I dont really consider this an update, we already know that your views of T+C's differ to many here, as does your view of the service as distinct from the hardware. I assumed an update was that you have lodged your case with the CGA or DT.

 

 

I was updating Quickymarts view on how the Tivo contract was originally formed. Its a shame it doesn't meet your definition of an "üpdate"- but I have also updated my position on T's and C's with a reference.

 

 

 

If we have some clarity on process then this might update peoples views on where I am coming from.

 

 

 

When others have a different view on contract or T's and C's they will perhaps do me the courtesy of referencing something that supports their view. Stops all this assumption.

 

 

 

CGA? - is that the Consumer Guarantees Authority? Please dont expect a quick update on this going to the DT. I think it civil to discus with Telecom first.




715 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1747569 25-Mar-2017 13:42
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quickymart: I was thinking that too. I reckon the next update should be when a claim has been lodged.

 

I bet - helps avoid the correcting of assertions you make.


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