Dodgy power outlet?

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Reply # 732682 14-Dec-2012 17:42

Evilg:
nickb800: I eased up the screws holding the socket in question and shone a torch in there - yup only two wires connected to the socket, both black, and no sign of a third (earth) wire in the wall cavity (no flush box, was just screwed into wood panelling). Definitely getting the sparky around now, im starting to wonder if they even used mains cabling for that outlet or if it was just low voltage figure-8 cable!

Sounds like fun... electricians of previous decades are notorious for the number 8 fencing wire and "she'll be right" attitude.... you would not believe the things I have seen!

Good job checking it out, and yes, a good electrician is certainly needed at this point.

I think you mean people who think they can do electrical work, but are not electricians, see lots of results of home owners who give it a go and screw it up badly!

gregmcc

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Reply # 732683 14-Dec-2012 17:45

Bung:
Evilg:
Sounds like fun... electricians of previous decades are notorious for the number 8 fencing wire and "she'll be right" attitude.... you would not believe the things I have seen!

I don't think a real electrician would use 2 core for a power point. I do wonder though why so many light fittings were installed without an earth. It may have been legal at the time but how much would the saving in wire cost have been?

no so much the time or cost, but in the 60's and 70's there wasn't any call for an earth as most of the light fittings were bakerlite or wood. Not many light fittings or that era had any kind of external metal work, so no earth required

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Reply # 732684 14-Dec-2012 17:47

gregmcc:
nickb800:
richms: If it is showing nothing on L-N and connected 2 pin devices are working in the outlet, the tester is is defiantly wrong.

I'm wondering if the indicators on the front are indicating something different to what we would intuitively think from their description, because based on L-E being lit and L-N not being lit, you would think that means that the socket would not function, however on the diagramatic description on the back it says that that combination means earth not connected.

For correct wiring, it says that we should expect L-E and L-N lit, but not N-L, and this is exactly what happens on 95% of the outlets in the house, leading me to suspect that the tester is correct

Um... L-N is the same as N-L

And yet there are separate indicators for each (and the diagrams on the device suggesting that a correctly wired plug will have L-N but not N-L lit), hence my suggestion that they are indicating something different to what we would intuitively think

gregmcc

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Reply # 732690 14-Dec-2012 18:09

nickb800:
gregmcc:
nickb800:
richms: If it is showing nothing on L-N and connected 2 pin devices are working in the outlet, the tester is is defiantly wrong.

I'm wondering if the indicators on the front are indicating something different to what we would intuitively think from their description, because based on L-E being lit and L-N not being lit, you would think that means that the socket would not function, however on the diagramatic description on the back it says that that combination means earth not connected.

For correct wiring, it says that we should expect L-E and L-N lit, but not N-L, and this is exactly what happens on 95% of the outlets in the house, leading me to suspect that the tester is correct

Um... L-N is the same as N-L

And yet there are separate indicators for each (and the diagrams on the device suggesting that a correctly wired plug will have L-N but not N-L lit), hence my suggestion that they are indicating something different to what we would intuitively think

This again reaffirms what I say way back in this thread about a dodgy tester, seems to me that N-L should infact be labeled N-E, this been the case then this tester is non-compliant and should not be used.

Can you take a photo of the offending tester and post it here

kiwirock

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Reply # 732715 14-Dec-2012 18:51

Yeah it'd be interesting to see a pic of it. Does sound dodgy, that's if the "-" between the letters doesn't mean minus or takeaway because of some poorly thought out explanation of what it means to someone who reads English.

If L-E was actually live minus E (and actually L+N) then it'd be correct on both the good and bad socket. If N-L was neutral minus live (and therefore actually L+E) it would be correct to be out on the one with missing earth. But that's a long shot that the true meaning is lost in translation of the instructions from what - Chinese manufactured and understood operation to English of what "-" means?

kiwirock

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Reply # 732716 14-Dec-2012 18:55

And if N-L meant neutral minus live (meaning N+E) then that would be correct if it was out. But again, only in some really mistranslated or explained labeling would that remotely explain anything.

Bung

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Reply # 732734 14-Dec-2012 19:33

One pair of LEDs indicate presence of L-N,and L-E connections and the other LED shows L N reversal. The recall of a similar model was because the front labelling confused the issue and the L-N L-E and N-L labels were removed. Presumably the instructions give the correct diagnosis based on the lit and unlit LEDs.

nickb800

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Reply # 732892 15-Dec-2012 13:00

Bung: One pair of LEDs indicate presence of L-N,and L-E connections and the other LED shows L N reversal. The recall of a similar model was because the front labelling confused the issue and the L-N L-E and N-L labels were removed. Presumably the instructions give the correct diagnosis based on the lit and unlit LEDs.

Ah you've figured it out.

My model is the same as the recalled one here, albeit hamer branded, http://www.jaycar.com.au/news.asp?ID=1281, and re-reading the email from Hamer, they consider that it is fine for professionals, just confusing for consumers, hence Jaycar recalling it (from the consumer market where they operate) and Hamer continuing it (for the professional market in which they operate).

But at the end of the day, the patterns of the neon indicators are correct when considered with the diagrams on the back, and the pattern with the first neon lit and the rest unlit still indicates earth not connected, and this corroborates with what I saw behind the socket.

Also re: the sleepout wiring, the sleepout is a classic skyline/versatile/similar style single garage, and would be less than 20 years old, so sounds like it would definately be classed under more recent electrical regs. Having said that, it is fed from a 15A old style circuit breaker, which sounds appropriate for 1.5mm^2 TPS? Although the 'master' fuse on the subboard is 20A ceramic fuse.

Either way, the wiring is a dogs breakfast, and a sparky has been arranged, I'm sure it'll help his family for Christmas

gregmcc

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Reply # 732898 15-Dec-2012 13:21

nickb800:
Bung: One pair of LEDs indicate presence of L-N,and L-E connections and the other LED shows L N reversal. The recall of a similar model was because the front labelling confused the issue and the L-N L-E and N-L labels were removed. Presumably the instructions give the correct diagnosis based on the lit and unlit LEDs.

Ah you've figured it out.

My model is the same as the recalled one here, albeit hamer branded, http://www.jaycar.com.au/news.asp?ID=1281, and re-reading the email from Hamer, they consider that it is fine for professionals, just confusing for consumers, hence Jaycar recalling it (from the consumer market where they operate) and Hamer continuing it (for the professional market in which they operate).

But at the end of the day, the patterns of the neon indicators are correct when considered with the diagrams on the back, and the pattern with the first neon lit and the rest unlit still indicates earth not connected, and this corroborates with what I saw behind the socket.

Also re: the sleepout wiring, the sleepout is a classic skyline/versatile/similar style single garage, and would be less than 20 years old, so sounds like it would definately be classed under more recent electrical regs. Having said that, it is fed from a 15A old style circuit breaker, which sounds appropriate for 1.5mm^2 TPS? Although the 'master' fuse on the subboard is 20A ceramic fuse.

Either way, the wiring is a dogs breakfast, and a sparky has been arranged, I'm sure it'll help his family for Christmas

Good move ;)

Ropenuts

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Reply # 732899 15-Dec-2012 13:34

Kitchen Creators needs someone to shift some kitchens around....

nickb800

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Reply # 732920 15-Dec-2012 14:59

Ropenuts: Kitchen Creators needs someone to shift some kitchens around....

Haha I can't get away from it, even on geekzone! Down here for xmas this year unfortunately, otherwise could do with the $$

Ropenuts

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Reply # 732932 15-Dec-2012 16:00

Hahaha all good man. Knew it was you!

nickb800

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Reply # 736276 22-Dec-2012 11:29

Got the sparky around earlier in the week, fixed the outlet. Looks like the previous owner had moved the wall out a bit, and moved the outlet in the process, and didnt extend the ground. All it took was ~100mm or earth cable!

Sparky thought the subboard in the sleepout was supplied fine, but since all the fuses were fed by wires through the front of the board rather than from behind (meaning that live but insulated cables were exposed) he was going to suggest to the landlord that the board be replaced.

kiwirock

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Reply # 736307 22-Dec-2012 13:10

nickb800: Got the sparky around earlier in the week, fixed the outlet. Looks like the previous owner had moved the wall out a bit, and moved the outlet in the process, and didnt extend the ground. All it took was ~100mm or earth cable!

Sparky thought the subboard in the sleepout was supplied fine, but since all the fuses were fed by wires through the front of the board rather than from behind (meaning that live but insulated cables were exposed) he was going to suggest to the landlord that the board be replaced.

Can't say I've come across the new DIN rail system in any places I've rented yet. Always had the old ceramic fuses on hard board. Something nostalgic about them.

kiwirock

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Reply # 736308 22-Dec-2012 13:11

I take it the inside board has been upgraded? Or has an RCD in front of everything?

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