Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


69 posts

Master Geek


Topic # 115531 28-Mar-2013 18:38
Send private message

The reason I ask is that ours has a fault (it keeps tripping off) and the local sparky "bypassed" it by removing the neautral wire, and called it in for replacement.

My question is that since it is out of circuit and "on" all the time (and providing power to the hot water heater 24 hrs a day) is our power bill going to skyrocket?

It's been "bypassed" for a bout 4 weeks now.

Just wondering whether to go direct to power company and get a hurry up on a new box or is it not worth worrying about?

(There is no fault with hot water cylinder or anything else inside house, fault has been confirmed with ripple rcvr.)

Thanks

Create new topic

Ham

462 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 13


  Reply # 788870 28-Mar-2013 18:42
One person supports this post
Send private message

Your water heater will still have a thermostat so won't be on all the time.. your bill will be fine.



69 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 788874 28-Mar-2013 18:53
Send private message

Thanks Ham, yep I know it has a thermostat and will only heat as required but it will try to do this all day and not between the hours of 11 and 7 (or whatever it is) and surely that would cost more? If it's only a few bucks I obviously don't care but any more and I'll be a bit peeved (that it takes 4 weeks + to change a ripple box).

Just reckon it will push the bill up a bit otherwise why would we have these off peak options?

cheers

4395 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2401

Trusted

  Reply # 788881 28-Mar-2013 19:05
Send private message

Your power company uses the ripple control to switch off HW cylinders during peak power usage times. I don't think there is any other reason it's ever used.




Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2264

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 788893 28-Mar-2013 19:25
One person supports this post
Send private message

Your bill may go down as it should be more efficient to maintain temperature, rather than a mass recover after the ripple control has kicked it off for a while :)




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend from $150 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


21382 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4333

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 788940 28-Mar-2013 20:13
Send private message

No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.

Its not like a heatpump that has a vastly different return on energy input depending on how many kW it is being asked to provide. Resistive elements are always a 1:1

The only thing to watch out for is if you are on a time of day usage, it may move more of the usage to the higher rate times. Otherwise there shouldnt be a great deal of change. The load shedding aspect of the ripple controls is only supposed to be active for a few hours a day in anycase, its not a day/night rate selector.




Richard rich.ms

1077 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 31


  Reply # 789108 29-Mar-2013 09:23
Send private message

Do you have a seperate meter for your hotwater? If so your bill will remain the same. Do make sure that the ripple relay gets replaced though, otherwise you may get in trouble.

If you do not have a seperate meter, and you are on day/night rate (dual register meter) then your bill will go up because the cyclinder will heat during the day instead of just a night when power is about 1/2 price.

Ripple control does switch your cylinder off and on each night, it is not just for load shedding. At least on the Orion (Christchurch) network anyway. There are no timers on the switchboard (as I have seen in Hobart for example) where they do not use ripple control but have day/night rates.

However you must not be in Christchurch otherwise the ripple relay would be incorporated into the Arc Innovations advanced meter.

1077 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 31


  Reply # 789110 29-Mar-2013 09:30
Send private message

richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.


Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).



69 posts

Master Geek


  Reply # 789148 29-Mar-2013 10:54
Send private message

Thanks to everyone for the replies, it's pretty much confirmed what I thought about the setup however,

Skolink - I have a separate meter for hot water, can you please explain how the bill will stay the same? Wouldn't the second scenario (one meter) also apply. I mean it still heats all day and uses power all day, the meter just tells the reader "how much".... doesn't it?

Just want to clarify things before I have a chat to my local sparky (again).

p.s. I'm bottom South West of South Island (on Contact energy).

14109 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2526

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 789172 29-Mar-2013 11:11
Send private message

Skolink:
richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.


Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).


I've always wanted to test it. In a well insulated house it should be ok to leave it running.

You're not just heating the air, you have to heat the carpet, the framing, the lining, the sofa, etc. Once it's up to heat maybe it retains its heat better, and the whole house feels warmer.

Though it probably will cost significantly more to run, I wonder how much more.




AWS Certified Solution Architect Professional, Sysop Administrator Associate, and Developer Associate
TOGAF certified enterprise architect
Professional photographer


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2264

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 789176 29-Mar-2013 11:23
Send private message

timmmay:
Skolink:
richms: No way it will go down at all. Maintaining a temperature will always use more energy than heating it back up from a lower one for the same amount of water take off.


Yes, this fallacy is also applied to heat pumps as well. People leave them running all day and night even when not home (albeit on a slightly lower temperature), because they believe it will save power (not because they want to maintain a constant temperature).


I've always wanted to test it. In a well insulated house it should be ok to leave it running.

You're not just heating the air, you have to heat the carpet, the framing, the lining, the sofa, etc. Once it's up to heat maybe it retains its heat better, and the whole house feels warmer.

Though it probably will cost significantly more to run, I wonder how much more.


I guess there is differing opinions on this and various factors apply. I know that I go through more firewood if I don't light the fire at least once per day during the cold winter. Don't light it for a few days, house takes several times the amount of wood to bring things up to temperature again. Obviously there is a cross over point, i.e. if I was away a week, I would use more wood if I got someone to light each day, than if I just did the big light up when I got back.




Chorus has spent $1.4 billion on making their xDSL broadband network faster. If your still stuck on ADSL or VDSL, why not spend from $150 on a master filter install to make sure you are getting the most out of your connection?
I install - Naked DSL, DSL Master Splitters, VoIP, data cabling and general computer support for home and small business.
Rural Broadband RBI installer for Ultimate Broadband and Full Flavour

 

Need help in Auckland, Waikato or BoP? Click my email button, or email me direct: [my user name] at geekzonemail dot com


21382 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4333

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 789205 29-Mar-2013 12:13
Send private message

Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs. so are fireplaces.




Richard rich.ms

1077 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 31


  Reply # 789819 31-Mar-2013 07:46
Send private message

richms: Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs.

Agree. So there will be some point where it is more energy efficient to run constantly than to switch off/on.

richms: so are fireplaces.

Disagree. ECan approved burners do not have a 'low' setting, because they burn too inefficiently. The hotter a fire, the more efficiently it burns. Most burners only achieve maximum efficiency (about 60% gross) at maximum rated output. At lower outputs it drops to 50% gross.

1077 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 31


  Reply # 789820 31-Mar-2013 07:54
Send private message

howduz1: Skolink - I have a separate meter for hot water, can you please explain how the bill will stay the same? Wouldn't the second scenario (one meter) also apply. I mean it still heats all day and uses power all day, the meter just tells the reader "how much".... doesn't it?


The bill will stay the same, because as you say the second meter doesn't know what time of day the power is used. Your retailer assumes it is at night (or off-peak if you have afternoon boost).

Your primary meter must be dual-register (ie aware of the time of day / tariff) since you are on a day/night plan.

Does your bill have three readings; day/night day, day/night night, and offpeak?

1077 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 31


  Reply # 789913 31-Mar-2013 14:01
Send private message

Skolink:
richms: Inverter heatpumps are more efficiant at lower outputs.

Agree. So there will be some point where it is more energy efficient to run constantly than to switch off/on.

richms: so are fireplaces.

Disagree. ECan approved burners do not have a 'low' setting, because they burn too inefficiently. The hotter a fire, the more efficiently it burns. Most burners only achieve maximum efficiency (about 60% gross) at maximum rated output. At lower outputs it drops to 50% gross.


Strangely, our woodburner on which the Clean Air certification has now expired, lists on the side of it:
Efficiency (average)
High 63%
Medium 66%
Low 78%
Output range tested 7.6-16.1 kW
Maximum (estimated) 22 kW

I assume the efficiencies quoted must be net.

2833 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 479


  Reply # 790067 31-Mar-2013 22:19
Send private message

If anything you'll be on the winning side.  As pointed out above, the ripple control is used switch off that circuit during peak load times to reduce the power companies exposure to peak load costs from their power supplier.

Because this circuit is under the control of the power company they give you a cheaper rate on the ripple circuit.  At the moment you have the cheaper power 24 hours per day instead of just when the power company wants you to have access to the cheaper power. 

You won't actually see any direct savings but you'll be effectively getting "full access" power at the ripple rate, if that makes sense.




Sony Xperia X running Sailfish
Jolla C
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


Create new topic

Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.