Time to give electricity the flick?

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2 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2118430 2-Nov-2018 12:04

Just another 'gotcha' to watch out for if you're comparing FIXIE rates like I was...

Flick's rates they quote on the website are actually excluding GST - Although there is no mention of GST on the page so most might assume it's including GST since they pitch at consumers rather than businesses.

It's pretty inconsistent amongst all retailers whether they present rates including or excluding GST, but at least they tell you which one it is or give you an option to toggle between.

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#2121207 7-Nov-2018 00:33

High wholesale prices have forced an (albeit small) power company out of business.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/108406838/power-retailer-payless-energy-to-stop-selling-electricity-due-to-wholesale-electricity-market-volatility

There are rumors that more power companies could also soon be failing also.

tdgeek

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#2121228 7-Nov-2018 06:56

Aredwood: High wholesale prices have forced an (albeit small) power company out of business.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/108406838/power-retailer-payless-energy-to-stop-selling-electricity-due-to-wholesale-electricity-market-volatility

There are rumors that more power companies could also soon be failing also.

IMO, if people stayed on spot for a year or non spot for a year it works. But when people use spot when it works then hop off, that cannot work. Im on EK, I pay non spot which includes a hedging whether thats an actual hedge or a soft hedge just built into the price I pay. If I use EK in winter then dump them, they have worn the bad tome of the year, now get nothing more for me in the good times to even it out annually. Spot needs to be a 12 month contract with high exit fees so they can work that model through four seasons. Then it works for spot and the consumer.

andrewNZ

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#2121232 7-Nov-2018 07:19

I mostly agree but i think if you move between spot and fixed on the same provider it's fine.

tdgeek

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#2121234 7-Nov-2018 07:33

andrewNZ: I mostly agree but i think if you move between spot and fixed on the same provider it's fine.

I dont think so. If I am on spot, I enjoy the low prices and from time to time I cover the high prices, it averages out for me. If I hop off then Flick charges me fixed rates and they pay the spot prices for me, then I hop back when it suits me. The exit fee is cheap at $10 per unfulfilled month? So they lose the retail fixed income from my spot plan and then get hammered by paying my spot prices, that's how I see it

Amosnz

559 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#2121265 7-Nov-2018 08:56

tdgeek:

andrewNZ: I mostly agree but i think if you move between spot and fixed on the same provider it's fine.

I dont think so. If I am on spot, I enjoy the low prices and from time to time I cover the high prices, it averages out for me. If I hop off then Flick charges me fixed rates and they pay the spot prices for me, then I hop back when it suits me. The exit fee is cheap at $10 per unfulfilled month? So they lose the retail fixed income from my spot plan and then get hammered by paying my spot prices, that's how I see it

I'd expect that Flick's Fixie rate is the hedged rate they've locked in the power at for that 6 month period, and then distribution charges and their cut is added on top just like Freestyle. So it'll be the actual generator that wears the cost not Flick.

Speedtest

tdgeek

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#2121270 7-Nov-2018 09:10

Amosnz:

tdgeek:

andrewNZ: I mostly agree but i think if you move between spot and fixed on the same provider it's fine.

I dont think so. If I am on spot, I enjoy the low prices and from time to time I cover the high prices, it averages out for me. If I hop off then Flick charges me fixed rates and they pay the spot prices for me, then I hop back when it suits me. The exit fee is cheap at $10 per unfulfilled month? So they lose the retail fixed income from my spot plan and then get hammered by paying my spot prices, that's how I see it

I'd expect that Flick's Fixie rate is the hedged rate they've locked in the power at for that 6 month period, and then distribution charges and their cut is added on top just like Freestyle. So it'll be the actual generator that wears the cost not Flick.

No. Hedging is like insurance. You self insure and gamble the insurance premium saving against the cost, or you pay an insurance premium. Either way there is a cost. If a company hedges, they are paying extra for that protection, and it wont be cheap. The hedger should make a profit, so the fee charged for the hedge will more than cover the high spot times. The power company gets price certainty, at a cost. Otherwise hedging companies will go broke paying higher spot prices then their hedge fee covered. The consumer pays. But if the consumer flip flops based on spot prices, the power company pays.

Say EK pays a hedge cost to cover its 20,000 customers. This is based on 20,000 customers over a year, and the estimated highs and lows. Then 5,000 Flicksters go there, that 5000 is not covered, EK pays the spot price penalty that 5000 are now avoiding, which is why last year they at times were suspending taking on spot users

EDIT If they went to Fixies the same applied, then 15 minutes later the user goes back to cheap spot prices, leaving Fixie paying for a hedge it doesn't need. When spot goes to 1-30 kWh someone has to pay, and when some avoid that by flip flopping the companies pay, you cannot get around that.

pchs

174 posts

Master Geek

#2133087 24-Nov-2018 08:53

Starting to see this come right hopefully - still seeing some peaks, but generally and more importantly for people using energy storage reasonable periods of low rates - even down as low as 1c/kWh (generation) at times throughout the day, especially good in the South Island at the moment, Saw a place in Dunedin/Standard user/Night rate down to 5c/kWh total rate!

tdgeek

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#2133098 24-Nov-2018 08:57

Looks like it. Wet in many places, not cold, should be plenty of hydro in use one would expect.

nickb800

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#2133104 24-Nov-2018 09:22

HVDC link must do down at the moment - 3c/ MWh in the South Island and $500/MWh in the North, with Whirinaki diesel generator running

SBQ

100 posts

Master Geek

#2133117 24-Nov-2018 10:10

pchs:

Starting to see this come right hopefully - still seeing some peaks, but generally and more importantly for people using energy storage reasonable periods of low rates - even down as low as 1c/kWh (generation) at times throughout the day, especially good in the South Island at the moment, Saw a place in Dunedin/Standard user/Night rate down to 5c/kWh total rate!

South Island 'excluding' those on the Orion Network (Christchurch residents). For some reason they impose a surcharge which results in a much higher rate then those living elsewhere on a different network. Currently my Genesis weekend & night rate is at 12.16c/kW/hr (excludes GST). With Genesis's 10% payment discount, 10.94 is a very good flat rate. It's a real pity Flick could not package a better deal for the bulk of the S. Island population which live in Christchurch.

Loftus

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Master Geek

#2133122 24-Nov-2018 10:30

nickb800: HVDC link must do down at the moment - 3c/ MWh in the South Island and $500/MWh in the North, with Whirinaki diesel generator running

Confirmed: CAN link

Affected HVDC components aren't due back until Tuesday evening . Expect more high wholesale prices during high demand times.

pchs

174 posts

Master Geek

#2133150 24-Nov-2018 11:16

SBQ:

pchs:

Starting to see this come right hopefully - still seeing some peaks, but generally and more importantly for people using energy storage reasonable periods of low rates - even down as low as 1c/kWh (generation) at times throughout the day, especially good in the South Island at the moment, Saw a place in Dunedin/Standard user/Night rate down to 5c/kWh total rate!

South Island 'excluding' those on the Orion Network (Christchurch residents). For some reason they impose a surcharge which results in a much higher rate then those living elsewhere on a different network. Currently my Genesis weekend & night rate is at 12.16c/kW/hr (excludes GST). With Genesis's 10% payment discount, 10.94 is a very good flat rate. It's a real pity Flick could not package a better deal for the bulk of the S. Island population which live in Christchurch.

Agreed on it being a pity that there is a 3c surcharged leveraged across every kWh used, it really goes against what flick stand for by passing on wholesale and being transparent.

I understand that this charge is signaled by Orion to Retailers and happens in their peak times during the winter - if so I don't see why Flick can't package this up as a per kWh rate when it happens - sure the charges for these periods, probably between 7-9am 5-7pm will be extreme, but this will start to encourage users to use battery's/alternative power generation which should at the end of the day benefit us all.

Technically if a end user did not use any electricity (I.E they had batterys so could signal to draw nothing off the grid) during these Orion peak times then Orion when they do their complex/confusing end of year calculation for that ICP wont have any capacity charges to invoice to that retailer for that specific connection.

However as we speak in Christchurch even with their surcharge the per kWh cost is only $0.059 so that's not too bad! - Orion's off peak over the entire weekend is quite nice!

dantheperson

94 posts

Master Geek

#2133530 24-Nov-2018 23:02

pchs:
SBQ:

pchs:

Starting to see this come right hopefully - still seeing some peaks, but generally and more importantly for people using energy storage reasonable periods of low rates - even down as low as 1c/kWh (generation) at times throughout the day, especially good in the South Island at the moment, Saw a place in Dunedin/Standard user/Night rate down to 5c/kWh total rate!

South Island 'excluding' those on the Orion Network (Christchurch residents). For some reason they impose a surcharge which results in a much higher rate then those living elsewhere on a different network. Currently my Genesis weekend & night rate is at 12.16c/kW/hr (excludes GST). With Genesis's 10% payment discount, 10.94 is a very good flat rate. It's a real pity Flick could not package a better deal for the bulk of the S. Island population which live in Christchurch.

Agreed on it being a pity that there is a 3c surcharged leveraged across every kWh used, it really goes against what flick stand for by passing on wholesale and being transparent.

I understand that this charge is signaled by Orion to Retailers and happens in their peak times during the winter - if so I don't see why Flick can't package this up as a per kWh rate when it happens - sure the charges for these periods, probably between 7-9am 5-7pm will be extreme, but this will start to encourage users to use battery's/alternative power generation which should at the end of the day benefit us all.

Technically if a end user did not use any electricity (I.E they had batterys so could signal to draw nothing off the grid) during these Orion peak times then Orion when they do their complex/confusing end of year calculation for that ICP wont have any capacity charges to invoice to that retailer for that specific connection.

However as we speak in Christchurch even with their surcharge the per kWh cost is only $0.059 so that's not too bad! - Orion's off peak over the entire weekend is quite nice!

Doesn't that say the full outage is only till 22:30 on Sunday? Link still has some capacity from then till Tuesday

pctek

807 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#2133845 25-Nov-2018 16:41

What it is, is just like the sharemarket.

All happy when it's going well, mad panicking and abandoning ship when it suddenly - and inevitably - changes.

Which is why I avoided these seemingly great deals in the first place.

Now, Electric Kiwi....

Much better.

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