Time to give electricity the flick?

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83 posts

Master Geek

#1808384 28-Jun-2017 17:17

Also should add there are ducted air heating options for gas[1], similar to a ducted heatpump that are cheaper to install than a radiator or underfloor heating hydronic systems.

The hydronic systems will save you that annoying noise and draught from pushing all the air around though.

And my comment about running costs being the same as a heatpump, that is for mains gas. LPG runnings costs are a bit higher.

And who says you can't install a woodfire in Auckland? Just saw the new bylaw has come into effect, which doesnt seem to ban them, just requires cleaner burning models? [2]

All in all many great options for heating that avoid drawing electricity during peak periods.

[1] e.g. http://www.bonaire.co.nz/

[2] http://ourauckland.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/articles/news/2017/05/new-bylaw-for-indoor-domestic-fires/

easycloud

48 posts

Geek

#1808387 28-Jun-2017 17:27

dantheperson:

Also should add there are ducted air heating options for gas[1], similar to a ducted heatpump that are cheaper to install than a radiator or underfloor heating hydronic systems.

That's really nice. Do these Bonaire systems support both mains gas and LGP?

dantheperson:

And who says you can't install a woodfire in Auckland? Just saw the new bylaw has come into effect, which doesnt seem to ban them, just requires cleaner burning models? [2]

These guys did 3 years ago: https://www.thefireplace.co.nz/ They claimed for new home constructions where there isn't an existing wood burner, the options allowed are very limited. Yes it has to meet a certain level of emissions and at the time, only one $15,000 unit did in NZ. The only exemption was for lifestyle blocks greater than 1ha. Things might have changed since.

dantheperson

83 posts

Master Geek

#1808551 28-Jun-2017 23:25

easycloud:

That's really nice. Do these Bonaire systems support both mains gas and LGP?

Yup. http://www.bonaire.co.nz/bonaire_mb5.cfm

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#1809136 29-Jun-2017 19:35

dantheperson:

easycloud:

I was merely looking for non-electric ways of heating up the house. In Canada everyone had gas furnaces but gas was cheap. I wanted a wood fireplace when the house was being built 3 years ago but regulations have since made that illegal in Auckland. Not sure what other common options there are.

Pretty much all the mains gas heaters can be ordered for LPG. You can run a single room flued heater such as a Rinnai[1] which has similar purchase and running costs to a heatpump (and better in cold weather). Or you can go the whole hog and get a central heating boiler [2]. Very expensive but very very effective and low running costs, and also works when it is cold.

[1]https://rinnai.co.nz/Product/112/21/other-energysaver-rinnai-energysaver-559ft-rinnai-energysaver-559ft

[2] e.g. https://www.waterheater.co.nz/shop/central-heating/bosch3/bosch-condensing-5000w-18kw/

Carefully consider running costs before you get LPG heating installed. As LPG in the 45KG bottles costs around 16.4c per KW/hr. And if you are using a flued heater, you also need to account for it's efficiency as well. Some heat goes out the flue. Heatpumps will definitely be cheaper to run than LPG heating. Consider just using plug in electric heaters for supplementing the heatpumps output. Assuming it only occasionally needs a boost. Otherwise get the installers back as it will be either undersized or there is a fault that is causing it to output less heat than it should.

Im a plumber / gasfitter by trade, so it was easy for me to install LPG. I actually use an unflued LPG heater, but not one of those horrible glowing panel ones. I have a Rinnai Convector. (LPG version of this) It outputs 6.3KW of heat, So it quickly warms large areas. My house is really well ventilated (it is draughty) so no moisture problems from using an unflued heater.

easycloud

48 posts

Geek

#1810094 1-Jul-2017 15:29

Well, today has been the straw that broke the camel's back. A miserable Flick day since before 5am, the power never dropped to a reasonable level all day. The alerts won't stop and it doesn't look like it's going to improve this weekend.

We can cope with 3-4 hours of high prices on occasion, but perpetual cold and darkness is simply not healthy for the family and not worth the hassles.

Sorry Flick, great concept but your model needs to take into account these extended periods of high spot prices. If not, your customers will be like migration birds flocking by the masses in in the cheap summer days and deserting you in the winter. Failing to do that will make a big dent in the overall annual savings.

pogo

84 posts

Master Geek

#1810101 1-Jul-2017 15:42

What's with the high spot price today? It's normally cheaper in the weekend but today it shot up at 9am. And 500MW being sent south. It's not even cold today... was 10deg in chch this morning!

Coon

61 posts

Master Geek

#1810113 1-Jul-2017 16:07

well ventilated (it is draughty)

does you mean the house is not well insulated/cold?

timmmay

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#1810115 1-Jul-2017 16:09

easycloud:

Well, today has been the straw that broke the camel's back. A miserable Flick day since before 5am, the power never dropped to a reasonable level all day. The alerts won't stop and it doesn't look like it's going to improve this weekend.

We can cope with 3-4 hours of high prices on occasion, but perpetual cold and darkness is simply not healthy for the family and not worth the hassles.

Sorry Flick, great concept but your model needs to take into account these extended periods of high spot prices. If not, your customers will be like migration birds flocking by the masses in in the cheap summer days and deserting you in the winter. Failing to do that will make a big dent in the overall annual savings.

I think over the year you'll still work out quite a bit better off if you stay with Flick. I doubt they can do much about this, unless there's some kind of hedging available.

Moving to another power company while power prices are high isn't unreasonable, I've done it. Power companies may eventually cotton on to Flick customers doing this and imposing 12 months minimum terms or something.

Coon

61 posts

Master Geek

#1810119 1-Jul-2017 16:15

^ Flick is not that big

Sam91

608 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1810144 1-Jul-2017 17:22

Today has been pretty bad, up around 30c most of the day (Auckland).

As others have mentioned, people must be leaving Flick in droves. At the moment this is an option, so I see why people are doing it. You can save money by staying Flick year round, or you can save even more by changing before winter and then switching back. I just don't see how this is sustainable for Flick long-term. They could look at offering a fixed rate plan for winter months, and even if this fixed price isn't very competitive, it may still retain a decent chunk of customers simply because it's stable and customers can't be bothered moving.

It's a shame really, Flick's pricing structure is the right move for decarbonising electricity. When demand spikes we tend to use dirty sources of electricity (gas etc.) to meet the increased demand. Fixed price consumers are oblivious to this and will not adjust their demand. On the other hand, people on Flick type plans will adjust their demand based on real time price signals. This decreased demand means gas peaking plants cease production, and lower cost and zero emission sources (hydro) meet the current demand. At the moment this doesn't really happen, because the bulk of consumers are on fixed plans not variable plans. Hence the need for more companies like Flick.

tdgeek

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#1810190 1-Jul-2017 17:48

easycloud:

Well, today has been the straw that broke the camel's back. A miserable Flick day since before 5am, the power never dropped to a reasonable level all day. The alerts won't stop and it doesn't look like it's going to improve this weekend.

We can cope with 3-4 hours of high prices on occasion, but perpetual cold and darkness is simply not healthy for the family and not worth the hassles.

Sorry Flick, great concept but your model needs to take into account these extended periods of high spot prices. If not, your customers will be like migration birds flocking by the masses in in the cheap summer days and deserting you in the winter. Failing to do that will make a big dent in the overall annual savings.

I dont get this. You use Flick as its generally cheaper, yet "We can cope with 3-4 hours of high prices on occasion, but perpetual cold and darkness is simply not healthy for the family and not worth the hassles."

So its great, greater than great except when it doesn't suit? I would stay on Flick, then when its suits you each week, go elsewhere, then go back to Flick when it suits....

But in the real world you cant have your cake and eat it too. Maybe go to a larger provider and pay steadily higher prices all day long

Look at the annual benefit, not the 3 to 4 hours of pricing.

tdgeek

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#1810192 1-Jul-2017 17:51

Sam91:

Today has been pretty bad, up around 30c most of the day (Auckland).

As others have mentioned, people must be leaving Flick in droves. At the moment this is an option, so I see why people are doing it. You can save money by staying Flick year round, or you can save even more by changing before winter and then switching back. I just don't see how this is sustainable for Flick long-term. They could look at offering a fixed rate plan for winter months, and even if this fixed price isn't very competitive, it may still retain a decent chunk of customers simply because it's stable and customers can't be bothered moving.

It's a shame really, Flick's pricing structure is the right move for decarbonising electricity. When demand spikes we tend to use dirty sources of electricity (gas etc.) to meet the increased demand. Fixed price consumers are oblivious to this and will not adjust their demand. On the other hand, people on Flick type plans will adjust their demand based on real time price signals. This decreased demand means gas peaking plants cease production, and lower cost and zero emission sources (hydro) meet the current demand. At the moment this doesn't really happen, because the bulk of consumers are on fixed plans not variable plans. Hence the need for more companies like Flick.

Can you explain your two comments I bolded? Its an option to leave Flick and we need more like Flick?

I see people who do not look at the annual picture but get downhearted on todays picture.

Lostja

209 posts

Master Geek

#1810194 1-Jul-2017 17:52

I like their business model and prefer to give them a chance as a relatively new and small company. Still cheaper over the year.

tdgeek

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#1810198 1-Jul-2017 17:56

Lostja: I like their business model and prefer to give them a chance as a relatively new and small company. Still cheaper over the year.

Exactly. You can play it safe and pay higher rates, or you can play the real time market, cheaper when its cheaper, dearer when its dearer. The end game is the annual benefit.

easycloud

48 posts

Geek

#1810201 1-Jul-2017 18:00

tdgeek:

I dint get this. You sue Flick as its generally cheaper, yet "We can cope with 3-4 hours of high prices on occasion, but perpetual cold and darkness is simply not healthy for the family and not worth the hassles."

So its great, greater than great except when it doesn't suit? I would stay on Flick, then when its suits you each week, go elsewhere, then go back to Flick when it suits....

But in the real world you cant have your cake and eat it too. Maybe go to a larger provider and pay steadily higher prices all day long

Look at the annual benefit, not the 3 to 4 hours of pricing.

I think you misunderstood my point. I've been a loyal customer since they started and have encouraged others to stay. I'm merely stating the obvious fact that this winter has made it very difficult to make any real savings. It seems many people have switched over to EK already before this horrendous weekend came along.

At the end of the day, company loyalty is not compatible with savings. If the aim is to save, you do what you have to do.

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