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146 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1949889 1-Feb-2018 09:54
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JuanPerez:

 

Aredwood:

 

Far better would be for the lines companies to adopt a similar pricing model to what Chorus uses in their UFB pricing. In otherwords, select what size connection you need (capacity). Which will be a fixed fee to cover the cost of building and maintaining the network. And then pay a much lower per kW/Hr charge to cover the cost of energy only.

 

 

Agree that would be better, but lines companies are generally pretty risk averse and want to maintain a low profile, and there are a couple of issues:

 

     

  1. The capacity charge may breach the Low Fixed Charge regulations, as it could be viewed as a fixed charge that exceeds 15c per day
  2. Moving to capacity-based charges would lead to significantly higher bills for customers who don't use much electricity (e.g. elderly, poorer), which would not be popular.

 

 

It's also a beneficiary pays system and demand/capacity based systems are regarded the most fair methods. This is what got The Lines Company in King Country in trouble because they have such a sparse user base and lots of baches which may not consume much power but add demand to their network for capacity in trouble. However explaining this to consumers is incredibly difficult as a number just don't get the complexities of it.

 

The Low Fixed Charge regulations need to go anyway they were a feelgood band aid for a symptom of a problem and the beneficiaries are largely not going to be those that need it (like the Winter Energy Payment).

 

Per the Household sales-based electricity cost data from MBIE you'll see the main driver for the increase in electricity costs over the last five years has been distribution and transmission costs as significant capital investment has been needed from both the Transmission and Distribution network levels.


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Geek
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  Reply # 1950388 1-Feb-2018 22:45
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Agree with you, Voy1D and Aredwood. The low fixed charge regulation creates many times more harm (distorts consumer prices and behaviour) than good (dubious benefits to pensioners and poor people) and should be abandoned. And I like the Chorus approach to distribution pricing. Perhaps it should be based on fuse size or something else that matches the export/import limit at your connection point...


 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1950880 2-Feb-2018 19:53
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So looked at the data since I've been with Flick (August 2016)

 

 

 

 

 Cost $ 

 

14.3c per Kwh

 

 

 

 Daily fixed charge (includ variable) 

 

8.4c (per 30 mins)

 

 

 

 Flat fixed charges 

 

3.4c (per 30 mins)

 

 

 

 Spot price 

 

5.9c per Kwh

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hard to argue that you don't save money long term...





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  Reply # 1950881 2-Feb-2018 20:00
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Night spot price (10pm to 7am) works out to around 3.8c day spot is 7.5c.
So per half hour average cost is 10.9c at night and 16.7c per based on my usage...





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SBQ

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Geek
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  Reply # 1950964 2-Feb-2018 22:47
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mentalinc:

 

Night spot price (10pm to 7am) works out to around 3.8c day spot is 7.5c.
So per half hour average cost is 10.9c at night and 16.7c per based on my usage...

 



Correction 10.9c is the full hour (not per half hour?) at night ? 

Unfortunately folks in the Christchurch area don't get that kind of pricing under Flick. As mentioned Flick gets stung with a higher sur-charge by the Orion network which the net result is less favorable than other retailers. Genesis gives 15% prompt payment discount which works I will need Flick night rate to be near the same price as yours. 10,9 x 1.15 = 12.53c/kW/hr. Couldn't get away from Flick fast enough - a huge relief not worrying every 30mins when is the best time to run the washing machine or turning on the oven.


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  Reply # 1950987 3-Feb-2018 01:04
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JuanPerez:

 

Agree that would be better, but lines companies are generally pretty risk averse and want to maintain a low profile, and there are a couple of issues:

 

     

  1. The capacity charge may breach the Low Fixed Charge regulations, as it could be viewed as a fixed charge that exceeds 15c per day
  2. Moving to capacity-based charges would lead to significantly higher bills for customers who don't use much electricity (e.g. elderly, poorer), which would not be popular.

 

 

@JuanPerez That is why the silly low user regulations need to go. Simply as it makes it almost impossible for capacity based pricing plans to be offered. Also on average, poorer households are actually more likely to be high users of electricity. As an easy way to save on rent costs is to pack more people into the same house, to spread the rent over more people. Poor people struggle to afford higher efficiency appliances. If you are renting, then you can't install high efficiency heating, more insulation, double glazing etc.

 

And the low user regulations don't consider other energy sources that might be available. Friend used to live in an apartment that had central hot water. Those pipes weren't insulated properly, so he also had free central heating. He only needed power for cooking, lights, and the TV. You would be doing well to use more than 8000KWH per year living there. (he was forever complaining that it was too hot, and even in the middle of winter, still didn't need to use any heaters).

 

At the very least, the definition of a low user should be changed. As over 50% of residential connections are on low user plans. The cutoffs should be halved to 4500 units year for lower SI. And 4000 units/year rest of NZ.

 

 






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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1962617 23-Feb-2018 07:04
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Seeing rather good prices recently, mostly staying under 20 c/kWh weekdays and under 10 c/kWh at night - that's with Flick in Christchurch, on the low user plan. Great prices for charging the PHEV overnight. (Whether we can stay on the low user daily charge having bought a PHEV a month ago is unclear, but I've estimated we should stay a few hundred kWh/year under the threshold.)


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Geek
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  Reply # 1966732 1-Mar-2018 18:53
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heapsort:

 

Seeing rather good prices recently, mostly staying under 20 c/kWh weekdays and under 10 c/kWh at night - that's with Flick in Christchurch, on the low user plan. Great prices for charging the PHEV overnight. (Whether we can stay on the low user daily charge having bought a PHEV a month ago is unclear, but I've estimated we should stay a few hundred kWh/year under the threshold.)

 

 

Are you sure you are better off remaining on the lower user tariff with an EV? Wouldn't you get better overnight rates with standard tariffs?


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1966757 1-Mar-2018 19:37
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The Christchurch low user "crossover" is 9000 kWh, so in theory it should be cheaper to stay a low user if we stay under that amount? (I realise it is perhaps not that simple for a variable rate provider like Flick.)

 

Our pre-PHEV annual use was 6600 kWh, and with overnight PHEV charging I'm estimating we'll be around 8500 to 9500 kWh per year. In that range, the regular and low user plans should be very similar in total cost I would think.


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  Reply # 1967436 3-Mar-2018 10:15
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Flick are now taking signups from people who have grid connected solar. Buyback rate is the current wholesale power price.

https://www.flickelectric.co.nz/c/home-generation-trial

Although their systems are still in Beta.







655 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1985394 29-Mar-2018 13:24
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I used to see power rates at about 5c/kWh at night but these last few days it seems to be the same regardless of time, about $13/kWh.

 

I was wondering whether it's economic with Flick, or another supplier that offers off-peak pricing, to do load balancing by getting in batteries to charge at off peak rates and use them during peak rates.

 

I gather from one of the solar suppliers that the Tesla Powerwall 2 is the only one which can be charged by AC.

 

Anyone have any insight into this?


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  Reply # 1985403 29-Mar-2018 13:42
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Batteries are expensive. You'd also need inverters and such. I doubt it's economic given that off peak power isn't really much cheaper than peak at the moment.





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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1985408 29-Mar-2018 13:57
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Back of the napkin calculation:

 

Tesla power pack = NZD$10.000 (without installation)

 

Assuming about $0.1/KWh savings. 

 

You would need about 100.000KWh to recoup the cost of the powerwall.

 

At about 8.000 KWh/year, you need ~12.5 years.

 

 

 

But that's 21KWh/day and the powerwall is only 13.5KWh. So you would need to charge/discharge it twice in a day to get that saving.


SBQ

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Geek
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  Reply # 1985418 29-Mar-2018 14:08
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gchiu:

 

I used to see power rates at about 5c/kWh at night but these last few days it seems to be the same regardless of time, about $13/kWh.

 

I was wondering whether it's economic with Flick, or another supplier that offers off-peak pricing, to do load balancing by getting in batteries to charge at off peak rates and use them during peak rates.

 

I gather from one of the solar suppliers that the Tesla Powerwall 2 is the only one which can be charged by AC.

 

Anyone have any insight into this?

 



I see Flick has updated it's price schedule for Christchurch residents from 1st April 2018. https://assets.contentful.com/8pjb06am7y41/FOuDJDMyswSAiU8AUS2mm/0d10bf97bb95f679d41d37fc02f90d07/Christchurch_Pricing_Schedule_Apr_1_18.pdf

From the winter months May 1st to Aug 31st is where you will never save. Orion imposes a 'Winter sur-charge' of 9.08c/kW/hr. If you think 13c/kWh/hr is high, wait until this sur-charge kicks in where you'll see 22c/kW/hr for the night rate. It's clearly A LOT more than what Genesis offers for their night rate. Also in the winter months, electricity demand is at it's highest peak so the open market rates will overall be high.

Take a look at the Flick price in that link about, I will attest to anyone here to show me the final total cost would be less than what Genesis offers on a flat rate night price of 10c/kW/hr.

As for the Tesla Powerwall 2, they're best used in conjunction with solar PV charging as you really don't want to export the unused power into the grid where they pay peanuts. In this kind of setup the payback will be much greater than relying on charging it off peak at the low rates.


pab

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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1985420 29-Mar-2018 14:19
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SBQ:

From the winter months May 1st to Aug 31st is where you will never save. Orion imposes a 'Winter sur-charge' of 9.08c/kW/hr. If you think 13c/kWh/hr is high, wait until this sur-charge kicks in where you'll see 22c/kW/hr for the night rate. It's clearly A LOT more than what Genesis offers for their night rate. Also in the winter months, electricity demand is at it's highest peak so the open market rates will overall be high.

Take a look at the Flick price in that link about, I will attest to anyone here to show me the final total cost would be less than what Genesis offers on a flat rate night price of 10c/kW/hr.

As for the Tesla Powerwall 2, they're best used in conjunction with solar PV charging as you really don't want to export the unused power into the grid where they pay peanuts. In this kind of setup the payback will be much greater than relying on charging it off peak at the low rates.


Just to clarify that the Orion/Christchurch winter peak surcharge only applies between 7am-10am and 5pm-7pm weekdays, between 1 May and 31 August. Offpeak times, such as night rate (9pm-7am) and weekends aren't affected.

Mind you, that winter peak surcharge still hurts, I just try and minimise usage during those hours.

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