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448 posts

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  # 1275328 1-Apr-2015 14:21
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NonprayingMantis

even better, have an edge piece.  
Ideally you don't want cut ends exposed to the elements, so if you have the patience doing something like this is much better for edging, (and also looks neat too)

 

That we'd almost certainly have to do - we are an in an extreme wind zone and  Coastal D - the splash zone practically when the NW is blowing on a high tide! 




I help authors publish their books - DIYPublishing.co.nz



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Ultimate Geek


  # 1275336 1-Apr-2015 14:24
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Jeeves: If you're going to use decking timber, lay it so the 'ridged' side is facing down. Contrary to popular belief, the ridges aren't for grip, they're for drainage.
 

According to the code - if the deck is main ingress (and it is one of them) then you should lay them ridged up for better traction. We have smooth timber deck on the other side of the house - and it's pretty slippy if its wet.  Not sure whether to use timber or composit (regardless of whether we DIY or not) - anyone used composite in Wgtn's extreme coastal weather? 




I help authors publish their books - DIYPublishing.co.nz

 
 
 
 


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  # 1275383 1-Apr-2015 14:53
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lissie:
Jeeves: If you're going to use decking timber, lay it so the 'ridged' side is facing down. Contrary to popular belief, the ridges aren't for grip, they're for drainage.
 

According to the code - if the deck is main ingress (and it is one of them) then you should lay them ridged up for better traction. We have smooth timber deck on the other side of the house - and it's pretty slippy if its wet.  Not sure whether to use timber or composit (regardless of whether we DIY or not) - anyone used composite in Wgtn's extreme coastal weather? 


yeah, that is realy a load of cobblers.

ridged side up actually makes for worse traction because the ridges hold moisture, they are also hard to clean, which means they grow slippery moss a LOT more than the flat side.

ridge side down every time, except, maybe, for things like wheelchair ramps.

and yep,  ridge side down also helps keep moisture away from the tops of the piles, so the deck will also last longer.

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  # 1275388 1-Apr-2015 14:57
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lissie:
Jeeves: If you're going to use decking timber, lay it so the 'ridged' side is facing down. Contrary to popular belief, the ridges aren't for grip, they're for drainage.
 

According to the code - if the deck is main ingress (and it is one of them) then you should lay them ridged up for better traction. We have smooth timber deck on the other side of the house - and it's pretty slippy if its wet.  Not sure whether to use timber or composit (regardless of whether we DIY or not) - anyone used composite in Wgtn's extreme coastal weather? 


I haven't used composite in wellington, but I recenty did a small deck using it.  It's great to work with, cuts like wood

downside:  more expensive than regular decking
upside:  easier to lay, looks beautiful when laid (no screw holes etc). Lasts waaay longer with much less maintenance.

depending on how you want to treat the decking, you might even find composite works out cheaper over the life of it because you can buy it already the colour you want.  With normal wood you would need colour stains, and to regularly reapply it.  with composite it stays looking like that for years and years.

I used this stuff:
http://www.outdure.com/eco-decking



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Master Geek


  # 1275476 1-Apr-2015 15:55
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Definitely go free standing with piles away from the house and cantilevered bearers.

The window replacement with a door is a weather tightness issue so you must use a LBP to at least cover that.

Regarding the spa...
http://www.branz.co.nz/cms_show_download.php?id=cef1f643d4be385d3b29e167375900a340bfde20

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  # 1275502 1-Apr-2015 16:32
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The ridges in decking timber is to keep it off the bearers, allows it to dry.  People use it for the look and for tread, but that is not what it is for.

I was also concerned about slipping on a main entrance and the building inspector can/should do a test (you get paint additives to roughen it up to code), but when our new house was signed off the inspector just wanted something to walk on up to the main entrance even though plain decking does not actually meet code.  I think the attitude is that everyone does it with plain decking.  We did however have to keep the deck I think it was 1 or maybe 2 inch below the bottom of the brick cladding to prevent water ingress.  This is a house on a concrete foundation.




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mdf

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  # 1275515 1-Apr-2015 16:46
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I'm on to my third DIY deck (doing it now - and it will likely be the last for some time). Each time I've built one I've learnt something new. Building a basic deck (i.e. square, without rebates, picture framing, fiddles and twiddles) is easy enough, but building a deck well is surprisingly hard. I look at my first deck now and just see all the stuff I did wrong. It will also take you *waaay* longer than you think.

Have you thought about:

- Is there sufficient ground clearance to get your bearers and joists in under the proposed height of the decking? If not, there will be a *lot* of digging.
- Have you got room around the exterior of your deck to run your string lines and dig in your exterior piles comfortably? Awkward digging = hard slow digging.
- What are you digging in? Wellington dirt is seldom fun, and if you've got existing concrete, or Wellington rock, it will be worse (many Wellington building sites are just hills with the top scraped off).
- What's access to the building site like? Can a truck deposit the timber and concrete close to where you will use it, or are you lugging stuff by hand?
- Do you have a place close to the building site to store all the stuff prior to using it? You will be constantly moving stuff if you store it in the actual building site.
- What tools have you got? i.e. what tools do you need - you can technically build a deck with the basics (hammer, saw, spirit level, square, tape measure and string) but it will take forever without a drop/compound-mitre saw, concrete mixer, two drills/drill+impact driver and a nail gun. You might also need other stuff I've forgotten.
- How patient are you? Levelling the joists and getting the decking square and parallel takes a great deal of patient, painstaking work.
- Have you got a few weeks to dedicate to this, or are you fitting it around other stuff? Trying to do it in weekends over winter won't lead to fast progress.

If you can get some pointers from an experienced builder/friend/random dude on Geekzone, you will get a much better idea of whether it's something you want to take on or not. I'm not trying to talk you out of it, it's a great project if you've got the time and patience, but you need to be realistic about the scale of the project you are taking on. Even for a builder, a deck will take a good long while to build.

Some other comments:

- The reeded (ridged/grooved) face of decking was originally designed to go face down to help stop water sitting on top of the joists. Some people decided at some point it should go face up. I've always found it more slippery with the reeded face up (moss/mould/dirt in the ridges), but some claim that there is better grip across the ridges but slippery-er along the ridges. In any event, some suppliers supply decking graded on the reeded face or smooth face (or mini ridge, or crown or any number of other profiles). i.e. the nicer side of the timber (fewer knots etc.) can either been the reeded or smooth face. Depending on whether you want to go with a smooth or reeded face, make sure you order your decking graded on that face.

- I hate CCA decking timber, and really only use CCA timber for framing because there's no choice. Nasty chemicals don't mix well with bare feet (and hands etc. if there are kids involved too), much less wet bare feet. It's been banned in most first world countries, but fine for good ol' kiwis. ACQ pine (and some of the other pine variants that have replaced CCA overseas) is actually made here, but it's almost impossible to buy. There are a few fishhooks in using it too. Kwila looks lovely, but does bleed (not great around pools until it's weathered in) and can splinter. I also have some moral qualms about it's sustainability and the amount of orangutan blood spilled to get it here. Vitex is a great sustainable option (supporting the Solomon Islands) and works well in Wellington's rough climate, but it only comes in shorter (random) lengths and again needs to weather in a bit.

- I've looked at the composite decking stuff. It's great that it's straight and true. There are a couple of variants, basically hollow stuff and solid stuff. The solid stuff is heavy. The hollow stuff needs to be made watertight. For both you need to watch the expansion, and from what I understand they both soak up the heat. If you're in a sunny area, you won't be walking on it in bare feet of an afternoon. For the hollow stuff, I think you have to use it's hidden fastening system. The solid stuff has options.

- Shop around. The big box mega centers are convenient, but I've gotten better ranges, prices and services from going to wholesalers/specialist distributors and (in one case) Amazon.

Long post. Hope it helps.

 
 
 
 




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Ultimate Geek


  # 1275516 1-Apr-2015 16:46
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NonprayingMantis:

I haven't used composite in wellington, but I recenty did a small deck using it.  It's great to work with, cuts like wood

downside:  more expensive than regular decking
upside:  easier to lay, looks beautiful when laid (no screw holes etc). Lasts waaay longer with much less maintenance.

depending on how you want to treat the decking, you might even find composite works out cheaper over the life of it because you can buy it already the colour you want.  With normal wood you would need colour stains, and to regularly reapply it.  with composite it stays looking like that for years and years.

I used this stuff:
http://www.outdure.com/eco-decking
 
 

Did you use their quick build support system - that seems a lot easier to do than the traditional wooden one! 




I help authors publish their books - DIYPublishing.co.nz



448 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1275525 1-Apr-2015 17:00
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mdf: 

Long post. Hope it helps.
 

Yes it most definitely helps thanks! I'd not even thought about the "fake" deck getting hot - the whole point of the deck is to make walking around outside barefooted more comfortable! 

And yes everything will need to come up a flight of stairs - nice wide stairs - but stairs none the less! 

And yes we are a cut clay slope over rotten greywacke- I'll dig a test hole and see how awful it is!




I help authors publish their books - DIYPublishing.co.nz

6434 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1275529 1-Apr-2015 17:07
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lissie:
NonprayingMantis:

I haven't used composite in wellington, but I recenty did a small deck using it.  It's great to work with, cuts like wood

downside:  more expensive than regular decking
upside:  easier to lay, looks beautiful when laid (no screw holes etc). Lasts waaay longer with much less maintenance.

depending on how you want to treat the decking, you might even find composite works out cheaper over the life of it because you can buy it already the colour you want.  With normal wood you would need colour stains, and to regularly reapply it.  with composite it stays looking like that for years and years.

I used this stuff:
http://www.outdure.com/eco-decking
 
 

Did you use their quick build support system - that seems a lot easier to do than the traditional wooden one! 


No, we already had frame from previous deck which was fine.  
But we did use the 'Qwikbuild' hidden fasteners though, which are great.
Faster to lay the timber, the gaps are always perfect, and so much less fiddling around with nails or screw holes, burred screws etc which all end up making 'normally' installed decking look like crud sometimes.

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  # 1275554 1-Apr-2015 17:34
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lissie: The spa is a small one 1200 x 1900 2 person one - so certainly not as heavy as some! Or maybe not wrap the deck around the corner the spa will be positioned in... More design thinking required!


let's say the entire spa holds water (which it won't but let's say)
you get 1.2m x 1.9m x 1m = 2.2 m3
1L water is 1kg
2.2m3 water is 2200L = 2200kg
the people are ants in terms of weight, just add another 170kg for the people in the spa.
and what about furniture and other people on the deck ...






Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


Overarching undertones
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  # 1275886 2-Apr-2015 09:31
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NonprayingMantis:
lissie:
Jeeves: If you're going to use decking timber, lay it so the 'ridged' side is facing down. Contrary to popular belief, the ridges aren't for grip, they're for drainage.
 

According to the code - if the deck is main ingress (and it is one of them) then you should lay them ridged up for better traction. We have smooth timber deck on the other side of the house - and it's pretty slippy if its wet.  Not sure whether to use timber or composit (regardless of whether we DIY or not) - anyone used composite in Wgtn's extreme coastal weather? 


I haven't used composite in wellington, but I recenty did a small deck using it.  It's great to work with, cuts like wood

downside:  more expensive than regular decking
upside:  easier to lay, looks beautiful when laid (no screw holes etc). Lasts waaay longer with much less maintenance.

depending on how you want to treat the decking, you might even find composite works out cheaper over the life of it because you can buy it already the colour you want.  With normal wood you would need colour stains, and to regularly reapply it.  with composite it stays looking like that for years and years.

I used this stuff:
http://www.outdure.com/eco-decking




I resurfaced a small deck with this stuff a couple of years ago. It looks great but another downside is that it gets scratched if you drag outdoor furniture across it. Timber will scratch too but the scratches will disappear. With composite, it's permanent and shows. I believe that the composite is 50% wood fibre and 50% plastic.

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  # 1275888 2-Apr-2015 09:40
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joker97:
lissie: The spa is a small one 1200 x 1900 2 person one - so certainly not as heavy as some! Or maybe not wrap the deck around the corner the spa will be positioned in... More design thinking required!


let's say the entire spa holds water (which it won't but let's say)
you get 1.2m x 1.9m x 1m = 2.2 m3
1L water is 1kg
2.2m3 water is 2200L = 2200kg
the people are ants in terms of weight, just add another 170kg for the people in the spa.
and what about furniture and other people on the deck ...




I think this calculation is way off sorry. My spa is 2.2m x 1.5m x 0.85m high, and has seating for 3 people, so is most likely of bigger capacity than the OP's one.

By your calculations it would hold 2800 litres of water and therefore weigh up to 3000kg in total. However in reality my spa holds a mere 700 litres, so you have well underestimated the space taken up by the pump, heater, plumbing, electrics and insulation. Four people can comfortably lift my spa when empty so I estimate the total weight when full of water and 3 people would only be around 1100kg.

If the OP's spa is actually smaller and of even less capacity than mine then I see no need for a concrete pad as some have suggested. Having said that you do need to consider the stability of the ground first. I don't want to advocate rushing in without good planning, but for a spa as small as the OP's, it seems quite feasable to make the deck of sufficient strength to support it.

I used to live in Wellington - some hillside residents park their cars on old, ricketty, elevated and cantilevered timber carpads that look truly frightening. If you can hold a heavy modern car up, surely a small spa is no big deal as long as you get the foundation right.

First step is to lock in the actual weight you'll be supporting - it could be a lot less than you think as per my example above.

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  # 1275889 2-Apr-2015 09:41
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NonprayingMantis:
tchart:
NonprayingMantis:  Just take your time and don't rush it.


+1 for that.

While I haven't built a new deck from scratch I did have to rip up our old decking and replace it with new decking (7mx7m). It was hard work and patience is a must. We used a nail gun to nail the decking down. The main lengths of the decking were easy but occasionally I split the end of the decking if I was rushing (in hindsight, drilling and nailing by hand would have been better for the ends).

Also if at all possible trim the edges in one go (with a circular saw?). We measured and cut each length but still ended up with uneven ends. That's my biggest regret.


even better, have an edge piece.  
Ideally you don't want cut ends exposed to the elements, so if you have the patience doing something like this is much better for edging, (and also looks neat too)



I recently finished a deck for a friend using edging and corner detail identical to this. Looks really good but is a lot more complex (and therefore more expensive) to build because you need to double (or possibly triple) up many of the the underlying joists to support the flat/horizontal framing edge boards and the ends of the main boards. This is not necessary with ordinary straight cut-off decking.

The deck I built also looked like the one above because I used the 'Sharkstooth' fixing clip system to attach the boards to the joists. This is an invisible fixing system which has no nails or screws showing in the faces of the boards. Looks fantastic but, once again, is a lot more expensive.

http://www.sharkstooth.co.nz/

mdf

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  # 1276085 2-Apr-2015 13:36
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eracode: 

I recently finished a deck for a friend using edging and corner detail identical to this. Looks really good but is a lot more complex (and therefore more expensive) to build because you need to double (or possibly triple) up many of the the underlying joists to support the flat/horizontal framing edge boards and the ends of the main boards. This is not necessary with ordinary straight cut-off decking.



Amen to that. The one I'm doing at the moment (for my mum, bless her) uses 140mm facing. Needed 200mm wide edge joists. Right royal PITA.

EDIT: "facing" not "framing"

eracode: 

The deck I built also looked like the one above because I used the 'Sharkstooth' fixing clip system to attach the boards to the joists. This is an invisible fixing system which has no nails or screws showing in the faces of the boards. Looks fantastic but, once again, is a lot more expensive.

http://www.sharkstooth.co.nz/


I've seen this one before (on GZ I think) but never used it. Were you using it for pine or hardwood? The requirements to rout out before fastening seemed like too much work for hardwood. I also wasn't sure how it would work with warped boards. Does the previous fastener "pull" in the next board strongly enough before you get the next fastener in, or does the board just pop off as soon as you take the pressure off?

I was considering the Camo or Kreg systems, but wasn't sure how well these would hold. There's not much wood "under" the screw on the corner where it goes in.

For the current deck I'm using these GRK decking screws. They are amazing - awesome bite and pull down. This is with kwila, and the bronze finish blends in really nicely. Spax has a similar product, but I found it harder to source.

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