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  Reply # 1556305 20-May-2016 15:12
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I noticed a significant drop in the power bill when going from an old clockwork dryer with a basic AC motor to a nice condenser dryer with its brush less fancy speed changing and reversing thing with sensors. If you use it a lot consider something more efficient.




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  Reply # 1556349 20-May-2016 16:07
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richms: I noticed a significant drop in the power bill when going from an old clockwork dryer with a basic AC motor to a nice condenser dryer with its brush less fancy speed changing and reversing thing with sensors. If you use it a lot consider something more efficient.

 

 

 

Agreed.  A clothesline should be #1 consideration if you care about power bills, dryer a backup plan only.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1556384 20-May-2016 16:36
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

That's incorrect - where did that come from?

 

Section 80 of the Electricity Act 1992 (AKA "the law")

 

A good idea to follow ECP 50, (Electrical code of practice) but at the end of the day the Electricity act is what has to be followed, and should any issues arise out of home owner repairs the best defence is that it was "tested and certified by a registered person......"

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you refer the Electricity Act 1992, it very clearly states:

 

"Section 80: substituted, on 1 April 2010, by section 13 of the Electricity Amendment Act 2006 (2006 No 70)."

 

 

 

That repeals section 80 of the 1992 act.

 

Clause (2) in section 80 of part 9 of that 2006 act states:

 

"Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

 

 

 

(Actually - when I look back at the original 1992 act, that same clause was there anyway - that part hasn't even changed)

 

 

 

IOW - it's saying the same as ECP 50 (2004)

 

I do not believe your interpretation of the law is correct - implying that you may not for example legally replace an element on your toaster, or a broken plug on your hedge trimmer, without having it tested and certified by an electrical inspector before plugging it in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't interpret anything, I just quoted the section of the law directly

 

 


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  Reply # 1556411 20-May-2016 16:48
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Fred99:

richms: I noticed a significant drop in the power bill when going from an old clockwork dryer with a basic AC motor to a nice condenser dryer with its brush less fancy speed changing and reversing thing with sensors. If you use it a lot consider something more efficient.


 


Agreed.  A clothesline should be #1 consideration if you care about power bills, dryer a backup plan only.



Only works if your washing schedule and fine weather coincide and you don't value your time. And like birds..t on your clothes.




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  Reply # 1556447 20-May-2016 17:41
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gregmcc:

 

 

 

I didn't interpret anything, I just quoted the section of the law directly

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you did was demonstrate very graphically how selectively quoting sections of acts of parliament incomplete and out of context - in that case excluding the subsection directly under the section (g) quoted can give a completely inaccurate answer.  You specifically stated "section (g) is the most important bit!" in response to richms who had stated that "Legally you are allowed to repair your own appliances." - which is perfectly correct, subject to conditions, and in most cases section (g) will not apply. 

 

 

 

I don't know which appliances would by section (g) require electrical inspection after DIY / owner repair.  I guess possibly appliances with high voltage (CRT TVs perhaps) potential for radiation hazard etc.  I'm guessing you probably shouldn't weaponise the magnetron from a microwave, or build a DIY x-ray machine for your DIY medical practice.  I'd ask my son - who is almost a sparky (apprentice) and flew through his regs exam, but I'm confident he won't know.  In fact he dumped the paper copies of ECP 50 and ECP 51 on my desk stating that they were no use to him whatsoever as he wasn't going to be tested on anything in those regs.  I guess if he went on to become an inspector, he'd have to know.  But IMO the usual rider "I am (or am not) a sparky" should be read with caution in relation to interpreting ECP 50 and 51.  I am not a sparky. 


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  Reply # 1556477 20-May-2016 18:54
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

I didn't interpret anything, I just quoted the section of the law directly

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you did was demonstrate very graphically how selectively quoting sections of acts of parliament incomplete and out of context - in that case excluding the subsection directly under the section (g) quoted can give a completely inaccurate answer.  You specifically stated "section (g) is the most important bit!" in response to richms who had stated that "Legally you are allowed to repair your own appliances." - which is perfectly correct, subject to conditions, and in most cases section (g) will not apply. 

 

 

 

In every case section (g) does apply, testing is a mandatory step prior to the appliance been connected to power in relation to this particular regulation, unless you have no intention to connect it to the power ever again, which would negate the whole point of the exercise of repairing the appliance.

 

 

 

 

“80 Exemption for maintenance of domestic appliances

 

     

  •  

     

    “(1) The owner of any electrical appliance may do any prescribed electrical work, or assist in doing any prescribed electrical work, in relation to that appliance if—

     

       

    •  

      “(a) the appliance is kept principally for the use of that person, or any near relative of that person, or both; and

       

       

    •  

      “(b) the appliance is used principally for domestic purposes and not for commercial or industrial purposes; and

       

       

    •  

      “(c) the work is within the limits prescribed in regulations made for the purposes of this section; and

       

       

    •  

      “(d) the work is carried out in accordance with the requirements of any regulations; and

       

       

    •  

      “(e) the work is carried out in a competent and safe manner; and

       

       

    •  

      “(f) while that work is being carried out, the appliance is not connected to a power supply; and

       

       

    •  

      “(g) the work is, before connection to a power supply, tested and certified, in accordance with regulations, by a registered person who holds a current practising licence issued under this Act that authorises that person to test and certify prescribed electrical work.

       

     

     

    “(2) Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

     

     

     

    “(3) For the purposes of subsection (1), near relative, in relation to any person, means—

     

       

    •  

      “(a) a grandparent of that person:

       

       

    •  

      “(b) a parent or step-parent of that person:

       

       

    •  

      “(c) a parent or step-parent of that person's spouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner:

       

       

    •  

      “(d) a brother or sister of that person, including a halfbrother or half-sister:

       

       

    •  

      “(e) that person's spouse, civil union partner, or de facto partner:

       

       

    •  

      “(f) a child or step-child of that person:

       

       

    •  

      “(g) a grandchild of that person.

       

     

 

 

I don't know which appliances would by section (g) require electrical inspection after DIY / owner repair.  I guess possibly appliances with high voltage (CRT TVs perhaps) potential for radiation hazard etc.  I'm guessing you probably shouldn't weaponise the magnetron from a microwave, or build a DIY x-ray machine for your DIY medical practice.  I'd ask my son - who is almost a sparky (apprentice) and flew through his regs exam, but I'm confident he won't know.  In fact he dumped the paper copies of ECP 50 and ECP 51 on my desk stating that they were no use to him whatsoever as he wasn't going to be tested on anything in those regs.  I guess if he went on to become an inspector, he'd have to know.  But IMO the usual rider "I am (or am not) a sparky" should be read with caution in relation to interpreting ECP 50 and 51.  I am not a sparky. 

 

 

 

 

Any appliance above extra low voltage, lots of things to consider, such as correct termination of wiring..... along with a myriad of other things, it's not simply a matter of twisting a couple of wires together and it's all good to go which I'm sure lots of non-electrical people think.


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  Reply # 1556493 20-May-2016 19:08
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90% of the regs you are talking about are relating to prescribed electrical work that a home owner would do with in their home  nothing to do with appliances, if he was to sell the appliance then it would become a concern as he has repaired it him self, then he would need to get some one to check it over and test and tag it, at the end of the day the sparkys responsibilities lays with the paper work that they have supplied for the installation, this means nothing to do with the appliances that the home owner chooses to plug in repair on their own accord, if the home owner wants to repair the appliance them selves a sparky cant stop them but the problems that may arise lies with the person that repaired the appliance, so yes it is best to get a electrical appliance service tec to have a look 


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  Reply # 1556517 20-May-2016 19:57
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sparkz25:

 

90% of the regs you are talking about are relating to prescribed electrical work that a home owner would do with in their home  nothing to do with appliances, if he was to sell the appliance then it would become a concern as he has repaired it him self, then he would need to get some one to check it over and test and tag it, at the end of the day the sparkys responsibilities lays with the paper work that they have supplied for the installation, this means nothing to do with the appliances that the home owner chooses to plug in repair on their own accord, if the home owner wants to repair the appliance them selves a sparky cant stop them but the problems that may arise lies with the person that repaired the appliance, so yes it is best to get a electrical appliance service tec to have a look 

 

 

 

 

Not quite.  We were talking about ECP50 (or at least I was) vs ECP 51.

 

There's an issue or hole in regs (IMO), so that if an owner DIY fixed an appliance they own, then later sold it privately (ie on tm etc), it probably should be tested (ie a "test and tag") before sale. It shouldn't be a huge issue to get it tagged - cost a few dollars at a hardware store etc.  OTOH some risk analysis should perhaps be done first - ie has this been a real issue rather than hypothetical, and if there are cases where it appears that it could have been an issue, then if it had been "tested and tagged" would it have actually made any difference?

 

Some care is needed (IMO) to avoid adding process/legislation before it's even been determined that there's a real issue.

 

 

 

This also applies to general zealotry with OSH etc.  Some folks are making a living out of risk analysis and implementing corrective action - but before there's been any incident.  You risk losing the trees for the wood - putting resources into the wrong things, and adding unnecessary cost and complexity to getting stuff done. 


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  Reply # 1556521 20-May-2016 20:06
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gregmcc:

 

 

 

In every case section (g) does apply, testing is a mandatory step prior to the appliance been connected to power in relation to this particular regulation, unless you have no intention to connect it to the power ever again, which would negate the whole point of the exercise of repairing the appliance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't want to argue this any more.  Sorry but you're wrong, and I'm 100% certain on this.

 

"Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

 

Those regulations are very clearly stated in ECP 50 - at least to cover almost anything a sane homeowner etc would ever want to do, ECP50 itself references back to the Act of Parliament (ie not the "regulation").

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1556580 20-May-2016 21:50
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

In every case section (g) does apply, testing is a mandatory step prior to the appliance been connected to power in relation to this particular regulation, unless you have no intention to connect it to the power ever again, which would negate the whole point of the exercise of repairing the appliance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't want to argue this any more.  Sorry but you're wrong, and I'm 100% certain on this.

 

"Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

 

Those regulations are very clearly stated in ECP 50 - at least to cover almost anything a sane homeowner etc would ever want to do, ECP50 itself references back to the Act of Parliament (ie not the "regulation").

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guess you didn't read regulation 82

 

 

 

Testing, certification, and inspection

 

82

 

     

  •  

     

    “(1) If any prescribed electrical work is carried out, that work or, as the case may require, the works or electrical installation or electrical appliance in respect of which that work is carried out must not be connected to a power supply unless the testing, certification, and inspection that is required by regulations has been carried out.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


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  Reply # 1556581 20-May-2016 21:53
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@Fred99  as you said earlier, "then if it had been "tested and tagged" would it have actually made any difference?" it all depends who tests and tags the appliance, some where int he regs it stipulates who can test and tag, and from memory any person deemed competent can test and tag ie school care takers and so on, now that was a greay area and has been for some time, sot he word being competent is the greay area as you could have some complete muppet that deems them selves as competent but really they have no idea.

 

when we refer to the word installation this means the house or the property with the contents for the wiring, nothing to do with the appliances that are plugged in, if its permanently wired in my opinion that becomes part of the installation as the home owner cannot easily remove this appliance such as heated towel rails and or free standing ranges.

 

quote ECP51:2004

 

"The testing and certification of electrical work carried out by the owner of an electrical installation in accordance with this code must be undertaken by a licensed electrical inspector. The inspector will inspect and test the work in accordance with NZS 3019 and must include a random selection of socket-outlets and light switches and light fittings, all socket-outlets rated above 10 A, all permanently connected appliances and all fittings, electrical appliances and light fittings associated with damp locations. Upon completion, the inspector will certify and liven the work"

 

if you read in there it clearly mentions permanently wired appliances which are part of the installation as you cannot unplug them.

 

so in short form if you are to repair an appliance that is plug in on your own accord you are ok to do so as its not part of the installation and will not fall back on the sparky as the sparky has only certified the instalation and not the accessories to the installation (ie microwaves and dishwashers), but when it comes to adding cables or altering wiring  thats classified as prescribed electrical work as you are altering the installation of the cables that had been certified ( ie adding new sockets, lights and so on)

 

 


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  Reply # 1556583 20-May-2016 22:01
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gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

In every case section (g) does apply, testing is a mandatory step prior to the appliance been connected to power in relation to this particular regulation, unless you have no intention to connect it to the power ever again, which would negate the whole point of the exercise of repairing the appliance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't want to argue this any more.  Sorry but you're wrong, and I'm 100% certain on this.

 

"Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

 

Those regulations are very clearly stated in ECP 50 - at least to cover almost anything a sane homeowner etc would ever want to do, ECP50 itself references back to the Act of Parliament (ie not the "regulation").

 

  

 

 

Guess you didn't read regulation 82

 

 

 

Testing, certification, and inspection

 

82

 

     

  •  

    “(1) If any prescribed electrical work is carried out, that work or, as the case may require, the works or electrical installation or electrical appliance in respect of which that work is carried out must not be connected to a power supply unless the testing, certification, and inspection that is required by regulations has been carried out. 

     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is from the act not the regs


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  Reply # 1556606 20-May-2016 22:59
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RUKI:

 

 

 

Main reason of failures in modern electronics besides introduction of ROHS is: Capacitors made in China. F&P buys components in China.. Wonder if their medical products use the same component base...

 

 

Very OT but medical device design and manufacture is a pretty different process to designing and manufacturing appliances. The level of record keeping and design controls are a lot higher. The FDA having the power to shut your factory without notice makes you quite risk adverse. 

 

When you buy a component you can buy commercial grade, medical grade or military grade.


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  Reply # 1556645 21-May-2016 05:41
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sparkz25:

 

gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

 

 

In every case section (g) does apply, testing is a mandatory step prior to the appliance been connected to power in relation to this particular regulation, unless you have no intention to connect it to the power ever again, which would negate the whole point of the exercise of repairing the appliance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really don't want to argue this any more.  Sorry but you're wrong, and I'm 100% certain on this.

 

"Subsection (1)(g) applies only if required by regulations.

 

Those regulations are very clearly stated in ECP 50 - at least to cover almost anything a sane homeowner etc would ever want to do, ECP50 itself references back to the Act of Parliament (ie not the "regulation").

 

  

 

 

Guess you didn't read regulation 82

 

 

 

Testing, certification, and inspection

 

82

 

     

  •  

    “(1) If any prescribed electrical work is carried out, that work or, as the case may require, the works or electrical installation or electrical appliance in respect of which that work is carried out must not be connected to a power supply unless the testing, certification, and inspection that is required by regulations has been carried out. 

     

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this is from the act not the regs

 

 

 

 

So??, It still means testing is required for appliances

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1556647 21-May-2016 05:47
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Can someone please just get an answer from energy safety on this one because I have never ever heard of anyone bothering to get their own toaster tested after sticking a new plug on it when some moron melts the cable on the sandwich press before they plug it back in.





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