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  Reply # 1556650 21-May-2016 06:00
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richms:

 

Can someone please just get an answer from energy safety on this one because I have never ever heard of anyone bothering to get their own toaster tested after sticking a new plug on it when some moron melts the cable on the sandwich press before they plug it back in.

 

 

 

 

I really don't think you need a ruling from energy safety, the act says you must test, the regulations says you must test, the AS/NZS say you must test, the ECP's say you must test.

 

 

 

It's pretty clear, you must test, but if you want why don't you ring energy safety yourself

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1556652 21-May-2016 06:14
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This thread is a LONG way off topic. The OP didn't ask for any of this, take it somewhere else.

OP, if you request it, the mods will probably remove all unrelated posts.




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  Reply # 1556653 21-May-2016 06:26
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Whether this is worth fixing depends on a few things, such as the age and state of the dryer, and the state of things around and connected to the capacitor when it went.

The short answer is, it might be worth it, but until someone looks at it, you wont know.




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  Reply # 1556682 21-May-2016 08:06
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gregmcc:

 

richms:

 

Can someone please just get an answer from energy safety on this one because I have never ever heard of anyone bothering to get their own toaster tested after sticking a new plug on it when some moron melts the cable on the sandwich press before they plug it back in.

 

 

 

 

I really don't think you need a ruling from energy safety, the act says you must test, the regulations says you must test, the AS/NZS say you must test, the ECP's say you must test.

 

 

 

It's pretty clear, you must test, but if you want why don't you ring energy safety yourself

 

 

 

 

 

 

@richms there we go another way of interpret this

 

as the act regs and what ever other doc you are looking at all they state is you must test. but its up to you if you want to or not.

 

so my question to you now is how would you test the appliance after you have replaced the faulty cap?

 

i know how i would test it


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  Reply # 1556685 21-May-2016 08:29
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sparkz25:

 

gregmcc:

 

richms:

 

Can someone please just get an answer from energy safety on this one because I have never ever heard of anyone bothering to get their own toaster tested after sticking a new plug on it when some moron melts the cable on the sandwich press before they plug it back in.

 

 

 

 

I really don't think you need a ruling from energy safety, the act says you must test, the regulations says you must test, the AS/NZS say you must test, the ECP's say you must test.

 

 

 

It's pretty clear, you must test, but if you want why don't you ring energy safety yourself

 

 

 

 

 

 

@richms there we go another way of interpret this

 

as the act regs and what ever other doc you are looking at all they state is you must test. but its up to you if you want to or not.

 

so my question to you now is how would you test the appliance after you have replaced the faulty cap?

 

i know how i would test it

 

 

 

 

Look thru the standards there are  examples of the correct way to test and results to expect, these are tried and proven methods.

 

there is no point detailing here what and how as only those involved in the electrical field would have access and knowledge to correctly use the test equipment.

 

 


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  Reply # 1556788 21-May-2016 13:04
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andrewNZ: This thread is a LONG way off topic. The OP didn't ask for any of this, take it somewhere else.

OP, if you request it, the mods will probably remove all unrelated posts.

 

 

 

This seems to happen almost every time a question is asked relating to "electrical DIY".  Not just on geekzone - it seems to be everywhere that it turns into a lengthy rambling confusing thread full of conflicting expert and non-expert opinion.  It may be good (IMO) perhaps if there was a "sticky", with links to the ECP50/51 regs, disclaimers/warnings, and moderated discussion below it.

 

 


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  Reply # 1556805 21-May-2016 13:48
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IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

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  Reply # 1556812 21-May-2016 14:13
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Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone


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  Reply # 1556825 21-May-2016 14:56
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gregmcc:

 

Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone

 

 

 

 

Greg - I'm almost too scared to tell you this, but the test procedure / instructions in the ECP 50 (2004) regulations are in fact to do exactly that - use a multimeter.  Earth test, active to earth, neutral to earth, and/or active to exposed metal on class II (double insulated) appliances.

 

Please refer to section 4.6 (page 34 on) from the regs.


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  Reply # 1556829 21-May-2016 15:28
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone

 

 

 

 

Greg - I'm almost too scared to tell you this, but the test procedure / instructions in the ECP 50 (2004) regulations are in fact to do exactly that - use a multimeter.  Earth test, active to earth, neutral to earth, and/or active to exposed metal on class II (double insulated) appliances.

 

Please refer to section 4.6 (page 34 on) from the regs.

 

 

 

 

There is a good reason why a portable appliance tester, or insulation resistance tester on low ohms or an earth loop impedance tester on low ohms is used to test earth continuity and not a $12 repco multimeter.

 

How can a active to earth test be preformed with a multimeter?, the standards clearly state an insulation tester is to be used and the test voltage shall be 2 times the RMS voltage, not achievable with a multimeter.

 

 

 

Taking ECP's as the way to do electrical things is asking for trouble, ECP's will give a very basic grasp how a way on how to do it, and just because you want to fix your toaster or whatever it doesn't mean you totally ignore the regs, the standards and blindly follow the ECP's. At the end of the day the regs clearly state that repaired appliances *must* be tested prior to use by a suitably qualified person, mr home handyman is not a suitably qualified person, he can get is $12 repco multimeter and do the tests, but from a legal standpoint they mean and prove nothing.

 

 


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  Reply # 1556839 21-May-2016 15:46
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If you want to persist in chasing rainbows, every second hand appliance sold in working order is supposed to be tested and tagged by an approved person. That's where your lost opportunity is not repairs under clause 80 of the Act and clause 79 of ESR 2010.

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  Reply # 1556862 21-May-2016 16:24
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defanately not a cheap $12 meter you need a cat3 rated meter for mains voltages, a good fluke meter will do the trick


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  Reply # 1556863 21-May-2016 16:27
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gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone

 

 

 

 

Greg - I'm almost too scared to tell you this, but the test procedure / instructions in the ECP 50 (2004) regulations are in fact to do exactly that - use a multimeter.  Earth test, active to earth, neutral to earth, and/or active to exposed metal on class II (double insulated) appliances.

 

Please refer to section 4.6 (page 34 on) from the regs.

 

 

 

 

There is a good reason why a portable appliance tester, or insulation resistance tester on low ohms or an earth loop impedance tester on low ohms is used to test earth continuity and not a $12 repco multimeter.

 

How can a active to earth test be preformed with a multimeter?, the standards clearly state an insulation tester is to be used and the test voltage shall be 2 times the RMS voltage, not achievable with a multimeter.

 

 

 

Taking ECP's as the way to do electrical things is asking for trouble, ECP's will give a very basic grasp how a way on how to do it, and just because you want to fix your toaster or whatever it doesn't mean you totally ignore the regs, the standards and blindly follow the ECP's. At the end of the day the regs clearly state that repaired appliances *must* be tested prior to use by a suitably qualified person, mr home handyman is not a suitably qualified person, he can get is $12 repco multimeter and do the tests, but from a legal standpoint they mean and prove nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as you seem to use a PAT then you know the reasons why what you're saying there is not accurate wrt testing being compulsory at 2x rms voltage, hence why there's a 250VDC setting, and why on many very common appliances these days you'd be performing a leakage test at 230v AC as those DC tests are mainly useless, except to check the power cord perhaps and little else (fault in LV standby psu perhaps).

 

This thread is going from merely off-topic to what looks like a p*ssing contest with no value to anybody.


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  Reply # 1556871 21-May-2016 16:44
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone

 

 

 

 

Greg - I'm almost too scared to tell you this, but the test procedure / instructions in the ECP 50 (2004) regulations are in fact to do exactly that - use a multimeter.  Earth test, active to earth, neutral to earth, and/or active to exposed metal on class II (double insulated) appliances.

 

Please refer to section 4.6 (page 34 on) from the regs.

 

 

 

 

There is a good reason why a portable appliance tester, or insulation resistance tester on low ohms or an earth loop impedance tester on low ohms is used to test earth continuity and not a $12 repco multimeter.

 

How can a active to earth test be preformed with a multimeter?, the standards clearly state an insulation tester is to be used and the test voltage shall be 2 times the RMS voltage, not achievable with a multimeter.

 

 

 

Taking ECP's as the way to do electrical things is asking for trouble, ECP's will give a very basic grasp how a way on how to do it, and just because you want to fix your toaster or whatever it doesn't mean you totally ignore the regs, the standards and blindly follow the ECP's. At the end of the day the regs clearly state that repaired appliances *must* be tested prior to use by a suitably qualified person, mr home handyman is not a suitably qualified person, he can get is $12 repco multimeter and do the tests, but from a legal standpoint they mean and prove nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as you seem to use a PAT then you know the reasons why what you're saying there is not accurate wrt testing being compulsory at 2x rms voltage, hence why there's a 250VDC setting, and why on many very common appliances these days you'd be performing a leakage test at 230v AC as those DC tests are mainly useless, except to check the power cord perhaps and little else (fault in LV standby psu perhaps).

 

This thread is going from merely off-topic to what looks like a p*ssing contest with no value to anybody.

 

 

 

 

Testing at 2x the RMS using DC stresses the insulation that's what makes the insulation test a must test, using a low ohms test on an insulation tested uses a higher test current than a standard multimeter can produce and an accurate result.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1556907 21-May-2016 17:14
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gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

Bung: IMHO gregmcc is ignoring the clause in the Act that says that "g" is only required if required by the Regulations. The Electrical Safety Reg that applies to the domestic exemption directs that the work is carried out to ECP50. That code of practice has its own section on required testing to be done by "you" ie the person doing the repair.
If you don't have the required multimeter you shouldn't be starting the work. ECP50 only covers LV appliances not anything like TVs with high voltage sections.

 

 

 

A multimeter is not a suitable piece of test equipment that will meet the testing requirements as set out in the regs/standards

 

 

 

The exemption for people is all good allowing people to repair their appliances, but it does not exempt them from testing, testing is a mandatory requirement for everyone

 

 

 

 

Greg - I'm almost too scared to tell you this, but the test procedure / instructions in the ECP 50 (2004) regulations are in fact to do exactly that - use a multimeter.  Earth test, active to earth, neutral to earth, and/or active to exposed metal on class II (double insulated) appliances.

 

Please refer to section 4.6 (page 34 on) from the regs.

 

 

 

 

There is a good reason why a portable appliance tester, or insulation resistance tester on low ohms or an earth loop impedance tester on low ohms is used to test earth continuity and not a $12 repco multimeter.

 

How can a active to earth test be preformed with a multimeter?, the standards clearly state an insulation tester is to be used and the test voltage shall be 2 times the RMS voltage, not achievable with a multimeter.

 

 

 

Taking ECP's as the way to do electrical things is asking for trouble, ECP's will give a very basic grasp how a way on how to do it, and just because you want to fix your toaster or whatever it doesn't mean you totally ignore the regs, the standards and blindly follow the ECP's. At the end of the day the regs clearly state that repaired appliances *must* be tested prior to use by a suitably qualified person, mr home handyman is not a suitably qualified person, he can get is $12 repco multimeter and do the tests, but from a legal standpoint they mean and prove nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well as you seem to use a PAT then you know the reasons why what you're saying there is not accurate wrt testing being compulsory at 2x rms voltage, hence why there's a 250VDC setting, and why on many very common appliances these days you'd be performing a leakage test at 230v AC as those DC tests are mainly useless, except to check the power cord perhaps and little else (fault in LV standby psu perhaps).

 

This thread is going from merely off-topic to what looks like a p*ssing contest with no value to anybody.

 

 

 

 

Testing at 2x the RMS using DC stresses the insulation that's what makes the insulation test a must test, using a low ohms test on an insulation tested uses a higher test current than a standard multimeter can produce and an accurate result.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're talking about "appliances" some of which may have surge protection etc and will fail the test at 500V DC, then what do you do if you must insulation test it at Dc voltage 2x the RMS?

 

Something like my oven or dishwasher or TV or vacuum cleaner, stuff with 230v motors elements etc power mains power switched internally by low voltage "soft" switching, you can't properly test with your 500V DC or 250V setting on your PAT anyway - you've got no way to get that voltage past the power switch (relay) on the device, so you're not actually testing the device at all - a phase wire to an element or motor or whatever might be direct shorted to some metal on the case - and the PAT test will not pick it up, so unless you pull the thing completely to pieces, you can't practically test it with 2x RMS supply voltage.

 

 

 

So if you've found something stating that it's compulsory to test like that, please post a link to the exact clause, in full - not another version leaving out the important bits about when that test can't be used, then what should be done.


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