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  Reply # 1556926 21-May-2016 18:06
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...snip

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're talking about "appliances" some of which may have surge protection etc and will fail the test at 500V DC, then what do you do if you must insulation test it at Dc voltage 2x the RMS?

 

Something like my oven or dishwasher or TV or vacuum cleaner, stuff with 230v motors elements etc power mains power switched internally by low voltage "soft" switching, you can't properly test with your 500V DC or 250V setting on your PAT anyway - you've got no way to get that voltage past the power switch (relay) on the device, so you're not actually testing the device at all - a phase wire to an element or motor or whatever might be direct shorted to some metal on the case - and the PAT test will not pick it up, so unless you pull the thing completely to pieces, you can't practically test it with 2x RMS supply voltage.

 

 

 

#1 if a surge protection is failing at 500V then it's faulty, (oh look the required test has found the faulty surge protection)

 

#2 any kind of switching should not switch the neutral (there are exceptions for medical equipment and hazardous area equipment and a few others) so a neutral-earth test will pick up an element faulted to earth.

 

#3 testing requirements require that mechanical operated switches should be activated such as turning the switch on, on the jug. beyond that common sense should kick in and a competent person will realise that further testing although not impossible is impractical.

 

#4 any fool who does a phase to neutral insulation test on and electronic device such as a TV deserves to pay for the damage done, and this is where competency again comes in to play.

 

There is a whole standard on testing, something your average DIYer usually knows nothing about

 

 

So if you've found something stating that it's compulsory to test like that, please post a link to the exact clause, in full - not another version leaving out the important bits about when that test can't be used, then what should be done.

 

 

Already have regulation 82

 

 


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  Reply # 1557126 22-May-2016 09:16
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gregmcc:

 

...snip

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're talking about "appliances" some of which may have surge protection etc and will fail the test at 500V DC, then what do you do if you must insulation test it at Dc voltage 2x the RMS?

 

Something like my oven or dishwasher or TV or vacuum cleaner, stuff with 230v motors elements etc power mains power switched internally by low voltage "soft" switching, you can't properly test with your 500V DC or 250V setting on your PAT anyway - you've got no way to get that voltage past the power switch (relay) on the device, so you're not actually testing the device at all - a phase wire to an element or motor or whatever might be direct shorted to some metal on the case - and the PAT test will not pick it up, so unless you pull the thing completely to pieces, you can't practically test it with 2x RMS supply voltage.

 

 

 

#1 if a surge protection is failing at 500V then it's faulty, (oh look the required test has found the faulty surge protection)

 

#2 any kind of switching should not switch the neutral (there are exceptions for medical equipment and hazardous area equipment and a few others) so a neutral-earth test will pick up an element faulted to earth.

 

#3 testing requirements require that mechanical operated switches should be activated such as turning the switch on, on the jug. beyond that common sense should kick in and a competent person will realise that further testing although not impossible is impractical.

 

#4 any fool who does a phase to neutral insulation test on and electronic device such as a TV deserves to pay for the damage done, and this is where competency again comes in to play.

 

There is a whole standard on testing, something your average DIYer usually knows nothing about

 

 

So if you've found something stating that it's compulsory to test like that, please post a link to the exact clause, in full - not another version leaving out the important bits about when that test can't be used, then what should be done.

 

 

Already have regulation 82

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to tell you what's wrong with most of what you've said above.

 

I'm not going to go and find "regulation 82" either, even though there will be a paper copy of it here, as I expect it may apply to you (in trade) not me (I am not a sparky).

 

ECP 50 is the regulation. It does include instructions for safety and basic testing. You seem to have a problem with that.  I don't.


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  Reply # 1557133 22-May-2016 09:39
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Fred99:

 

gregmcc:

 

...snip

 

 

 

 

 

 

We're talking about "appliances" some of which may have surge protection etc and will fail the test at 500V DC, then what do you do if you must insulation test it at Dc voltage 2x the RMS?

 

Something like my oven or dishwasher or TV or vacuum cleaner, stuff with 230v motors elements etc power mains power switched internally by low voltage "soft" switching, you can't properly test with your 500V DC or 250V setting on your PAT anyway - you've got no way to get that voltage past the power switch (relay) on the device, so you're not actually testing the device at all - a phase wire to an element or motor or whatever might be direct shorted to some metal on the case - and the PAT test will not pick it up, so unless you pull the thing completely to pieces, you can't practically test it with 2x RMS supply voltage.

 

 

 

#1 if a surge protection is failing at 500V then it's faulty, (oh look the required test has found the faulty surge protection)

 

#2 any kind of switching should not switch the neutral (there are exceptions for medical equipment and hazardous area equipment and a few others) so a neutral-earth test will pick up an element faulted to earth.

 

#3 testing requirements require that mechanical operated switches should be activated such as turning the switch on, on the jug. beyond that common sense should kick in and a competent person will realise that further testing although not impossible is impractical.

 

#4 any fool who does a phase to neutral insulation test on and electronic device such as a TV deserves to pay for the damage done, and this is where competency again comes in to play.

 

There is a whole standard on testing, something your average DIYer usually knows nothing about

 

 

So if you've found something stating that it's compulsory to test like that, please post a link to the exact clause, in full - not another version leaving out the important bits about when that test can't be used, then what should be done.

 

 

Already have regulation 82

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to tell you what's wrong with most of what you've said above.

 

I'm not going to go and find "regulation 82" either, even though there will be a paper copy of it here, as I expect it may apply to you (in trade) not me (I am not a sparky).

 

ECP 50 is the regulation. It does include instructions for safety and basic testing. You seem to have a problem with that.  I don't.

 

 

 

 

What does ECP stand for "Electrical code of Practice" it is not the regulations it is not the standards, this is why your not an Electrician. and this is why the industry is so heavily regulated because people have absolutely no idea on correct ways to do electrical work. They take a look at ECP 50 for example and follow that with little regard for actual regulations and the standards on the best way to achieve a safe repair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1557156 22-May-2016 10:05
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gregmcc:

Fred99:


gregmcc:


...snip


 



 


We're talking about "appliances" some of which may have surge protection etc and will fail the test at 500V DC, then what do you do if you must insulation test it at Dc voltage 2x the RMS?


Something like my oven or dishwasher or TV or vacuum cleaner, stuff with 230v motors elements etc power mains power switched internally by low voltage "soft" switching, you can't properly test with your 500V DC or 250V setting on your PAT anyway - you've got no way to get that voltage past the power switch (relay) on the device, so you're not actually testing the device at all - a phase wire to an element or motor or whatever might be direct shorted to some metal on the case - and the PAT test will not pick it up, so unless you pull the thing completely to pieces, you can't practically test it with 2x RMS supply voltage.


 


#1 if a surge protection is failing at 500V then it's faulty, (oh look the required test has found the faulty surge protection)


#2 any kind of switching should not switch the neutral (there are exceptions for medical equipment and hazardous area equipment and a few others) so a neutral-earth test will pick up an element faulted to earth.


#3 testing requirements require that mechanical operated switches should be activated such as turning the switch on, on the jug. beyond that common sense should kick in and a competent person will realise that further testing although not impossible is impractical.


#4 any fool who does a phase to neutral insulation test on and electronic device such as a TV deserves to pay for the damage done, and this is where competency again comes in to play.


There is a whole standard on testing, something your average DIYer usually knows nothing about



So if you've found something stating that it's compulsory to test like that, please post a link to the exact clause, in full - not another version leaving out the important bits about when that test can't be used, then what should be done.



Already have regulation 82


 



 


I'm not going to tell you what's wrong with most of what you've said above.


I'm not going to go and find "regulation 82" either, even though there will be a paper copy of it here, as I expect it may apply to you (in trade) not me (I am not a sparky).


ECP 50 is the regulation. It does include instructions for safety and basic testing. You seem to have a problem with that.  I don't.



 


What does ECP stand for "Electrical code of Practice" it is not the regulations it is not the standards, this is why your not an Electrician. and this is why the industry is so heavily regulated because people have absolutely no idea on correct ways to do electrical work. They take a look at ECP 50 for example and follow that with little regard for actual regulations and the standards on the best way to achieve a safe repair.


 


 


 


 


 


 


 



I was going to let this go but as it is still running-

Section 82 of the Act specifies testing as required by Regulations. The Regulation is Reg 90 of the Eleectrical Safety Regs 2010. That clearly differentiates between homeowner and professional work. You can argue the merits but the politicians work on risk management. They won't change Reg 90 unless the facts support change.

Reg 90
Testing appliances
90 Testing appliances after certain work done on them
(1)
A person must comply with subclause (2) before releasing an appliance from his or her control if the person has—
(a)
done any prescribed electrical work on the appliance; or
(b)
done any work on the appliance that may affect its electrical safety.
(2)
The person must test the appliance and either—
(a)
confirm that it is electrically safe in accordance with the following:
(i)
in the case of prescribed electrical work done in reliance on section 80 of the Act (exemption for maintenance of domestic appliances): ECP 50:
(ii)
in the case of low or extra-low voltage electrical medical devices: AS/NZS 3551:
(iii)
in the case of all other low or extra-low voltage appliances: AS/NZS 5762; or
(b)
if the appliance is electrically unsafe, adequately disable and mark it.

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  Reply # 1557170 22-May-2016 10:32
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And here's the regulation - referring back to ECP 50

 

 

I don't see carts being driven along the road piled with the charred bodies of DIY home appliance repairers.

 

There are a few electrocutions in NZ each year - not many fortunately.  I don't know of any where the cause was inadequacy of the regulations code of practice (ECP 50) for testing of appliances when the owner of a domestic appliance has repaired something.  That's not the same as the owner of the appliance doing an unsafe DIY repair and killing himself through not following the regulations.

 

There isn't a problem (IMO), and risk is being lowered as time goes on anyway as RCD protected circuits are becoming the norm.  OTOH complacency breeds contempt, and that combined with dumbing down of the community by experts telling them what they're not allowed to do all the time may not be a good thing.

 

 


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  Reply # 1557218 22-May-2016 12:16
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This whole thread has been hilarious. Twenty years ago as a teenage schoolboy I worked in the holidays for an appliance importer/distributor. I happily repaired toasters, coffee makers, deep-fryers, kettles, etc. that had been returned under warranty. They got sold to the public as 'seconds' in a factory shop. I had no training, I did the testing with a multi meter then cleaned them and boxed them up (and often sold them).
As far as I'm concerned, if you know how to fix something, fix it. If you are scared of blowing yourself up, let someone else do it.

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  Reply # 1557686 23-May-2016 08:46
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1eStar: This whole thread has been hilarious. Twenty years ago as a teenage schoolboy I worked in the holidays for an appliance importer/distributor. I happily repaired toasters, coffee makers, deep-fryers, kettles, etc. .......

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you know how to fix something, fix it. If you are scared of blowing yourself up, let someone else do it.

 

 

In the movie "The book of eli" - "a post-apocalyptic tale, a lone man fights his way across America in order to protect a sacred book that holds the secrets to saving humankind..."

 

 

He was not carrying the "Code of Electrical Conduct" :-)..and during one episode he had visited another guy who seemed to be the only one left capable of charging batteries :-)

 

 

If you beleive that in the future you will always find that one man who will be able to fix your electronics, well, it might be true, but be prepared to pay the price.... It is less and less of us who actually can...

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