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timmmay

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  #1659461 28-Oct-2016 08:58
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Disrespective:

 

You have the right to ask for a cost breakdown to indicate where all of the costs, including the extra ones were incurred.

 

If he decided he needed to use a more expensive paint than in the original quote, or painted the hallway when that wasn't in the quote, then he needs to have this value priced separately as extra work over and above the quote.

 

Without a cost breakdown it's hard to know where the price increase happened, and thus why.

 

 

No extra work, it just took more time/effort than he allowed for in his estimate. He said he allowed for a partial strip and had to do a full strip, but the language he used indicates that the quote includes up to and including a full strip. Relevant quote lines are:

 

  • wooden window surround stripped back to bare wood where necessary
  • All other areas scraped and sanded thoroughly

That to me covers a full strip.

 

There's also the issue that he has no evidence that a full strip was done, and I know for a fact that he didn't fully strip all windows.

 

My position is going to be: I believe the work done falls within your quote. We've already paid you extra as a sign of good faith. If you want more money I invite you to take me to disputes tribunal, and if you keep asking for money I will take you to the disputes tribunal.


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Disrespective
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  #1659479 28-Oct-2016 09:24
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https://www.consumerprotection.govt.nz/get-guidance/contracts-quotes-and-estimates/getting-quotes-and-estimates/

 

See the examples section for a somewhat similar situation.

 

If the work was a quote, and it ended up costing more, then you don't need to pay. Simple.


mclean
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  #1659491 28-Oct-2016 09:38
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timmmay: Is there a standard escalation path under the building code? Is there a standard arbitration service, or some kind of dispute resolution service? Of course I will try to avoid any kind of escalation but I want to know my options.

 

Try Part 3 of the Construction Contracts Act.





McLean




timmmay

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  #1659546 28-Oct-2016 10:29
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Construction act was interesting, thanks. Seems you escalate to an adjudicator, who has the power to make a determination. There's no mention of small claims court, which would probably be easier and cheaper - adjudicators are likely to need to be paid. Is small claims still an option or do you have to go to adjudication?


ajobbins
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  #1659556 28-Oct-2016 10:41
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As others have said, the key factor here is that he's provided you with a 'quote', not an 'estimate'.

 

You're already paid him $500 more than he quoted. I'd be (politely) schooling him on the legal difference between a quote and an estimate, reiterate you've paid an extra a $500 in good faith, and he should learn for that experience and either quote more precisely in future, or provide an estimate not a quote.

 

If it were me, I would not be using a contractor again that left paint on your carpet. To me, that's a pretty basic failure from a supposed professional. Many tradies I have come across have been pretty crap at cleaning up after themselves, but paint where it shouldn't be is more damage than mess.





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  #1659561 28-Oct-2016 10:52
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I don't think you wouldn't bring any actions to the small claims court this case - he would.

 

If you have not paid what is thinks is owed he is making the claim on you.

 

 

 

As for the dispute as a whole my feeling is you are in the right (Count this as a vote for you rather than any legal fact though)


Handle9
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  #1659719 28-Oct-2016 12:55
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timmmay:

 

Disrespective:

 

You have the right to ask for a cost breakdown to indicate where all of the costs, including the extra ones were incurred.

 

If he decided he needed to use a more expensive paint than in the original quote, or painted the hallway when that wasn't in the quote, then he needs to have this value priced separately as extra work over and above the quote.

 

Without a cost breakdown it's hard to know where the price increase happened, and thus why.

 

 

No extra work, it just took more time/effort than he allowed for in his estimate. He said he allowed for a partial strip and had to do a full strip, but the language he used indicates that the quote includes up to and including a full strip. Relevant quote lines are:

 

  • wooden window surround stripped back to bare wood where necessary
  • All other areas scraped and sanded thoroughly

That to me covers a full strip.

 

There's also the issue that he has no evidence that a full strip was done, and I know for a fact that he didn't fully strip all windows.

 

My position is going to be: I believe the work done falls within your quote. We've already paid you extra as a sign of good faith. If you want more money I invite you to take me to disputes tribunal, and if you keep asking for money I will take you to the disputes tribunal.

 

 

What you have written is contractually a bit different than your OP. He has clarified the scope somewhat and therefore if he can potentially demonstrate that he has had to go out of scope. You must review the quote in it's entirety rather than just cherry pick individual lines. If it's grey then it goes back to the "reasonable man" test. In dispute that could result in a whole range of outcomes.

 

It also depends on what the quote was for - was it to meet scope or hours + materials? If it is to meet scope then cost over runs are the contractors problem.

 

Regardless the issue that he had done extra work without authorization remains and would count in your favour.




timmmay

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  #1659734 28-Oct-2016 13:10
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It's scope not time. The whole block I posted from is this

 

  • All New PVC windows masked up
  • wooden window surround stripped back to bare wood where necessary
  • All other areas scraped and sanded thoroughly
  • One coat of oil based wood primer applied to all bare areas
  • Metal flashing treated with metal primer
  • Imperfections filled with PAL Contract filler and spot primed
  • Two coats of Dulux Weathershield X10 semi gloss applied to the windows
  • Remove masking
  • Drop sheets used at all times
  • Window Surround – Cost per window = $x

Another issue is I didn't actually sign and date the quote as required, I just told him to go ahead - not sure if by voice or by email. So all in all it's a bit grey, which is why I paid him more than the quote.


nofam
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  #1659736 28-Oct-2016 13:12
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Dynamic: Based on your first and additional comments about the mess do you *really* want him back?

 

 

 

^This - pay him the difference, and get rid of him.  Plenty of other competent tradesman painters out there who will give you a lot less hassle.


mclean
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  #1659788 28-Oct-2016 13:42
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timmmay: Construction act was interesting, thanks. Seems you escalate to an adjudicator, who has the power to make a determination. There's no mention of small claims court, which would probably be easier and cheaper - adjudicators are likely to need to be paid. Is small claims still an option or do you have to go to adjudication?

 

You can choose adjudication under the Construction Contract Act or the Disputes Tribunal.  People in the building industry usually prefer the former and it doesn't have the $15,000 limit that the Disputes Tribunal has (this obviously doesn't affect your case).

 

For a disputed sum of $500 the Disputes Tribunal would be cheaper - costs only $45 plus your time to put the case together and present it.  Of course it's not guaranteed you will win and they usually only award part of a disputed sum.  For me I would move on to the next thing in life - you feel like that as you get older!





McLean


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  #1659823 28-Oct-2016 14:14
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Was the cost overun in labor or materials
what was his hourly rate, is it high enough for him to easily absorb extra time taken ?

 

if the job took less time, do you think he would be charging you less than the quote . Consider that when paying extra .

Could he have just knowingly underquoted , to get the job knowing he would just charge you more later .
After xx years in the job, surely he would have a good idea of how long jobs take & quote accordingly , and should know to contact the client
and advise on cost overuns .


timmmay

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  #1659902 28-Oct-2016 15:42
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Cost overrun was labor. $500 is enough for me to go to disputes tribunal, mostly because of the principle, but not enough to get too worked up about.


mattwnz
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  #1659909 28-Oct-2016 16:14
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Although I won't comment on this particular case, however from my experience, if a dispute arises where you have to go to a third party, it is very awkward to use the same tradesperson again. And you don't know if in future quotes, they will build the loss into the next job. I had this issue with a builder on a house, who even though they initially wore the loss of a mistake they had made, any other variations to the project were super expensive. So it is a bit of a lesson to always make sure you get everything in writing with no ambiguity. The problem is that to include everything in writing precisely all takes additional time, and with quotes they may be preparing 10 quotes, and only one of them gets accepted, so they can be a big time waster to do. I have come across companies recently who aren't even bothering to quote, they just say they will do it on an hourly or estimated basis only, otherwise they don't want the job.   In some ways estimates can be better for this type of job, because occasionally they can work less than estimated. Although with something as basic as painting, you would expect quotes to be fairly accurate. Stripping and preparing with painting, is where most of the time is spent, and it is DIY stuff low skilled stuff.

 

 


mattwnz
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  #1659916 28-Oct-2016 16:29
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timmmay:

 

Cost overrun was labor. $500 is enough for me to go to disputes tribunal, mostly because of the principle, but not enough to get too worked up about.

 

 

 

 

Although I presume they would be taking you to the DT if they want to be paid the difference. So in some ways, it is in their hands. They can either let it go, and it is their choice if they accept future work from you. Or they take you to the DT to claim the additional money. But would you then want them to do extra work for you if they did this, especially if they win? And if they lose, will they want to do the extra work for you in the future. There are plenty of painters around. To be honest though, if you want a really top job, you are best to paint yourself (unless spray painting rooms), as painters are often going to do it as quickly as possible.If you do it yourself you can do multiple coats and take your time to get it looking perfect. I had a painter in to do so difficult work on a second level, and 2 years down the track it is already pealing, and it was a bit rough around windows etc, although partly because it was in an awkward area to paint in.


timmmay

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  #1659927 28-Oct-2016 17:08
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I agree with a lot of what you say Matt. However painting myself isn't practical due to time availability and a sports injury. These painters do a much better job than me in 1/3 the time, and my time is generally more expensive and valuable to me than theirs.


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