Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
4919 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 961

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1860664 8-Sep-2017 08:30
One person supports this post
Send private message

networkn:

 

So at the home show today we came across Genesis Energy with a stand advertising solar panels in various packages. 

 

...

 

 

 

Anyone able to comment in not too technical terminology as to the sense in this proposition?

 

 

I've been putting off our own solar installation because I want at least 10kWh of battery storage along with it....and the house isn't built yet that we will install it on. My "perfect" system would be a Tesla (or possibly Monier) solar roof with 30kWh of battery.....so we could run all evening on stored power, including charging the car a bit.

For me, a lot of value in solar is having the power there when the grid fails and there is a black-out. Our life will go on as normal until it comes back on. That is worth a premium to me.  I also think if enough of us go solar then we won't have to help fund large, new power projects because they just won't be required.

We did it ourselves, a wee bit at time. All of us.  A new government with a real desire to reduce emissions could change a lot of things and make this easier for everyone. 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


10819 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1837

Trusted

  Reply # 1860671 8-Sep-2017 08:39
One person supports this post
Send private message

Linuxluver:

 

networkn:

 

So at the home show today we came across Genesis Energy with a stand advertising solar panels in various packages. 

 

...

 

 

 

Anyone able to comment in not too technical terminology as to the sense in this proposition?

 

 

I've been putting off our own solar installation because I want at least 10kWh of battery storage along with it....and the house isn't built yet that we will install it on. My "perfect" system would be a Tesla (or possibly Monier) solar roof with 30kWh of battery.....so we could run all evening on stored power, including charging the car a bit.

For me, a lot of value in solar is having the power there when the grid fails and there is a black-out. Our life will go on as normal until it comes back on. That is worth a premium to me.  I also think if enough of us go solar then we won't have to help fund large, new power projects because they just won't be required.

We did it ourselves, a wee bit at time. All of us.  A new government with a real desire to reduce emissions could change a lot of things and make this easier for everyone. 

 

 

We will be getting PV soon, Im looking at 6kW+. A 20kW battery would be heaven for evenings, but the price is an arm and half a leg. But you cannot run solar PV off grid unless you have some other circuitry? I dont think standard home solar will work off grid or in a power cut. Not sure what happens to the unused power in a power cut though


 
 
 
 


10819 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1837

Trusted

  Reply # 1860674 8-Sep-2017 08:55
Send private message

networkn:

 

Jase2985:

 

Mercury do a 1.16kw (4 panel) system for 5k, and 4.64kw (16 panel) for 13k, and 4.64kw with 4.8kwh of battery storage for 20k.

 

 

Genesis is 1.5KW for $5K it's the one we are looking at. 

 

A workmate and I did some estimates. 

 

2000 Approx Sunlight hours in Auckland Per Year. 

 

Assuming 100% output of 270W x 6 Panels / 1000 for KW/H gives 3240 KW/H Per Year.  At 24c per KHW I got $777 maximum savings on a best case scenario. Assuming 66% efficiency, more like $500 or thereabouts, so we would be 8-10 Years before it paid for itself. 

 

It's not outrageous, but not as good as I'd hoped. 

 

 

 

Anyone see any flaws in the calcs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get $622 per year, based on 20% loss from circuitry, AC/DC conversion etc, for 2000 annual sun hours, if you use it all. Less efficiency from early and late sun lets say that bring it back to $500. You will also generate on non sun hour days, light cloud etc, but not as much.

 

1. 10 year payback seems normal from my research, thats a good ROI, tax free.

 

2. Factor in when its paid off, you get an infinity ROI, $500 per year for zero capital outlay. They last a long while, 15, 20 25 years

 

3. Add in power company price increases

 

4. Timeshift anything you can. If you don't do daily washing or dishes, move as much as you can to sun days. You have a pellet fire and no heatpump as well? If you say had a heatpump, in sunny winter days you can offset some pellet fire use by running a heatpump on low in the afternoon. 

 

 


4919 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 961

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1860676 8-Sep-2017 08:58
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

 

 

We will be getting PV soon, Im looking at 6kW+. A 20kW battery would be heaven for evenings, but the price is an arm and half a leg. But you cannot run solar PV off grid unless you have some other circuitry? I dont think standard home solar will work off grid or in a power cut. Not sure what happens to the unused power in a power cut though

 

 

I'll have to look into that. 

Even if i need to have a switch to swap over then I'll do that. 

 

At the moment I have a line-interactive UPS in front of some LED desk lamps (on extension cords in seconds) and the Internet router and a couple of NAS boxes. If the power goes out, one light and the NAS and router stay on....and I can add other lights to the circuit as required. It worked a treat last week when the power went out for an hour and a half. The rest of the street was in darkness.......just our house with lights on. The UPS got down to about 30%...so I reckon I have just over 2 hours there. I'll get a bigger UPS. :-)   

I would hope I could put any solar and power storage in line with something like the UPS so that it can be used as required....preferably automatically, but I'm happy to unplug and thing and plug in another thing if I have to.  

 

 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


1439 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 313


  Reply # 1860705 8-Sep-2017 09:48
One person supports this post
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

 

 

3. Add in power company price increases

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be including any increase in retail prices. The current market is pretty flat and many of us are paying less year on year. A decade ago the industry correctly forecasted the current situation and I'm confident that they're correct when they forecast flat prices for the next decade.

 

See the MBIE retail and wholesale price surveys and forecasts, e.g. http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/energy/energy-data-modelling/statistics/prices/electricity-prices

 

You should also be doing a sensitivity analysis to see what happens if prices go down by 10%. That is if you really want to ensure that you will get a return.

 

 


10819 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1837

Trusted

  Reply # 1860706 8-Sep-2017 09:53
Send private message

Hammerer:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

3. Add in power company price increases

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't be including any increase in retail prices. The current market is pretty flat and many of us are paying less year on year. A decade ago the industry correctly forecasted the current situation and I'm confident that they're correct when they forecast flat prices for the next decade.

 

See the MBIE retail and wholesale price surveys and forecasts, e.g. http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/energy/energy-data-modelling/statistics/prices/electricity-prices

 

You should also be doing a sensitivity analysis to see what happens if prices go down by 10%. That is if you really want to ensure that you will get a return.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, good to know


I fix stuff!
1591 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 266

Trusted
Vocus
Subscriber

  Reply # 1860715 8-Sep-2017 10:17
Send private message

The University of Canterbury made a very good solar calculator for NZ conditions.

 

https://www.energywise.govt.nz/tools/solar-calculator/

 

Worth looking at


2852 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 628


  Reply # 1860716 8-Sep-2017 10:18
Send private message

Hammerer:

 

 

 

You should also be doing a sensitivity analysis to see what happens if prices go down by 10%. That is if you really want to ensure that you will get a return. 

 

Yeah, the big question with regard to such an investment is Tiwai, - which no one can pick in the short term,

 

Bbut in the long term, provided globalisation continues, Tiwai will get pushed out as an inefficient producer and closed.....


1439 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 313


  Reply # 1860722 8-Sep-2017 10:36
Send private message

On checking I found that wholesale prices are expected to increase more than was forecast last time I looked but retail prices are expected to be relatively level for the next five years.

 

 

Lower demand growth and an excess supply of committed new generation should put strong downward pressure on prices for next the decade. Even if new investment is needed from 2017 (as in the High Growth sensitivity), the availability of new renewable generation at around 9 c/kWh (real $2011) should limit real wholesale price increases.

 

 

I had a look at the MBIE "Energy Insight 2012" and the "Electricity Demand and Supply Generation Scenarios 2016" which include several scenarios including a high uptake of solar PV and electric vehicles. They can be found at  http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/energy/energy-data-modelling/modelling/new-zealands-energy-outlook/electricity-insight

 

 

 

 

 

 




15810 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4291

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 1860725 8-Sep-2017 10:38
Send private message

 

 

Using the information I believe to be accurate using the above calculator, we would lose nearly $7K over 25 years!

 

Click to see full size

 

 


10819 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1837

Trusted

  Reply # 1860735 8-Sep-2017 10:56
Send private message

networkn:

 

 

 

Using the information I believe to be accurate using the above calculator, we would lose nearly $7K over 25 years!

 

Click to see full size

 

 

 

 

Your tariff is 19.82c Incl GST?  Then a 12% discount? You said 24c which from my Genesis was about that incl GST and after discount

 

Your buyback is 12c, I think its 8c? 

 

You put daily rate, thats for a solar daily rate if there was one, but you wouldnt include the Genesis daily rate as you pay that anyway irregardless of solar, or does Genesis charge you 94c a day if you have solar?

 

Your usage is a low user usage, average of about $170 per month. I put 10500 being $100 in summer to $350 in winter roughly, and averaged

 

Doesnt look right. Your simple payback (not counting interest) is still high as your figures seem to be way too low, IMO

 

 


7257 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2313

Subscriber

  Reply # 1860858 8-Sep-2017 12:55
Send private message

Sounddude:

 

The University of Canterbury made a very good solar calculator for NZ conditions.

 

https://www.energywise.govt.nz/tools/solar-calculator/

 

Worth looking at

 

 

it doesnt take into account a battery system, nor a split system (some panels facing a different way)


7257 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2313

Subscriber

  Reply # 1860865 8-Sep-2017 13:03
One person supports this post
Send private message

@tdgeek:

 

 

 

We will be getting PV soon, Im looking at 6kW+. A 20kW battery would be heaven for evenings, but the price is an arm and half a leg. But you cannot run solar PV off grid unless you have some other circuitry? I dont think standard home solar will work off grid or in a power cut. Not sure what happens to the unused power in a power cut though

 

 

A system that comes with batteries will most likely have a hybrid inverter, which has a current sensor on the input power line, and when that looses power in a power cut it will stop the system from "selling" back any power to the grid. this means that any power generated or stored with your system will be kept in there.

 

the only downfall here is that the inverter will be about 5kw, which means you cant supply your whole house from it. so you will likely split up your whole house into 2 switchboards, one for non backup power, things like a electric hot water cylinder, washing machine dryer, heavy use items, and one for backed up power, is some/all lighting, fridge, tv, pc, networking equipment etc, so less draw than the rating of the inverter.

 

this way when the power goes out you will lose the non backed up stuff but still function semi normally at home till the power comes back. you can still generate power for your equipment, still charge and discharge your batteries. when the power comes back it will switch back to normal.


13575 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2328

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1860874 8-Sep-2017 13:20
Send private message

It may be cheaper to simply recharge batteries with cheaper night rate power if it's available in your area, and buy a $1000 generator to use in emergencies.

 

A friend of mine spent $14K on a solar system. We worked out that I saved roughly the same amount switching to Flick and time shifting some load, though that was when line charges were cheaper at night.





AWS Certified Solution Architect Professional, Sysop Administrator Associate, and Developer Associate
TOGAF certified enterprise architect
Professional photographer


10819 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1837

Trusted

  Reply # 1860881 8-Sep-2017 13:29
One person supports this post
Send private message

timmmay:

 

It may be cheaper to simply recharge batteries with cheaper night rate power if it's available in your area, and buy a $1000 generator to use in emergencies.

 

A friend of mine spent $14K on a solar system. We worked out that I saved roughly the same amount switching to Flick and time shifting some load, though that was when line charges were cheaper at night.

 

 

I feel timeshifting is very important for solar, otherwise your generating for little benefit, then using when there is no generation. If batteries to last the night or two were a few k that would be perfect, but thats not the case. I timeshift for EK, there is a good amount I can do for the sun. The OP is less suited as he has gas water and cooking and a pellet fire. That smaller unit should all generation to be used, so it should not be as bad as that site shows


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Samsung New Zealand introducing the Galaxy S9 and S9+
Posted 26-Feb-2018 07:00


Fujifilm X beats its best with new top of the range, high-performance camera
Posted 24-Feb-2018 14:05


One million kiwis affected by cybercrime
Posted 24-Feb-2018 13:58


New Zealanders want to engage with government online and via mobile apps
Posted 24-Feb-2018 13:56


Samsung launches Samsung Max
Posted 24-Feb-2018 13:52


CPTPP text and National Interest Analysis released for public scrutiny
Posted 21-Feb-2018 19:43


Foodstuffs to trial digitised shopping trolleys
Posted 21-Feb-2018 18:27


2018: The year of zero-login, smart cars & the biometrics of things
Posted 21-Feb-2018 18:25


Intel reimagines data centre storage with new 3D NAND SSDs
Posted 16-Feb-2018 15:21


Ground-breaking business programme begins in Hamilton
Posted 16-Feb-2018 10:18


Government to continue search for first Chief Technology Officer
Posted 12-Feb-2018 20:30


Time to take Apple’s iPad Pro seriously
Posted 12-Feb-2018 16:54


New Fujifilm X-A5 brings selfie features to mirrorless camera
Posted 9-Feb-2018 09:12


D-Link ANZ expands connected smart home with new HD Wi-Fi cameras
Posted 9-Feb-2018 09:01


Dragon Professional for Mac V6: Near perfect dictation
Posted 9-Feb-2018 08:26



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.