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288 posts

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  Reply # 1880272 10-Oct-2017 11:52
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If you use your hot water cylinder cupboard as an airing cupboard then not all standing loss is bad.





McLean



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  Reply # 1882160 11-Oct-2017 22:48
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Aredwood: Yes number 6 is the tempering valve.

Do pipes 7 and 8 go completely cold if hot water has not been used for a few hours? Also there will be either an open vent pipe through your roof or a pressure relief valve on your cylinder. check that it is not discharging water.

If You have hot water pipes in a concrete slab, it is also common for them to leak. Have seen this so bad at times that the leaking hot water pipes were acting as an effective but expensive underfloor heating system.

 

Pipes 7 and 8 are as hot as hell even after several hours of not using hot water ... also cold water pipe 9 is hot.... Sounds like a stuffed tempering valve and recirculating hot water around the cylinder.... I think you mentioned thermosyphoning somewhere else.... The tempering valve does regulate the tap temperature to 47C...

 

 

 

 





Gordy

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1882180 12-Oct-2017 00:42
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Now do my test of turning off valve 10 and see if the power usage drops, while the power is still turned on to the cylinder. You will probably need to leave that valve off for week. Or at least a few days while you are not at that house.







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  Reply # 1882398 12-Oct-2017 12:04
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mclean:

 

If you use your hot water cylinder cupboard as an airing cupboard then not all standing loss is bad.

 

 

It is an airing cupboard, but the standing losses seem too great to ignore so I want to try and reduce the standing losses...

 

 





Gordy



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  Reply # 1882400 12-Oct-2017 12:09
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I want to gather more energy usage information for my hot water standing losses but the retailer can't provide remote meter readings.

 

So I am determined to semi-automate my readings :-)

 

 

and with a bit of time schedulling gather these readings

 





Gordy



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  Reply # 1882406 12-Oct-2017 12:20
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To try and measure the cylinder temperature I have attached a thermocouple to the outside of the pipe that comes out of the top of the cylinder.

 

I removed what little lagging was present on the pipe, taped the thermocouple in place firstly with stretchy PVC tape, then a layer of masking tape and then put back the lagging.

 

So far I have measured 50C at the top of the cylinder. Pretty low even allowing for possible errors of 5 to 10C. Tap water has been previously measured 47C. Not a lot of difference.

 

 





Gordy

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  Reply # 1882498 12-Oct-2017 15:29
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FWIW, and since you are obviously interested in the details:  The temperature limiting valve (no 6 in the picture) is a very good one and has a built-in non-return valve in the cold port to stop it thermosyphoning back up the cold pipe.  It's a serviceable device and you can get a kit for it.

 

Also the 3-in one stop/filter/check valve (no 4) is upside down.  It'll still work OK, but if you open it to clean the filter all the crap will fall down inside the valve before you can get it out.





McLean



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  Reply # 1882505 12-Oct-2017 15:41
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mclean:

 

FWIW, and since you are obviously interested in the details:  The temperature limiting valve (no 6 in the picture) is a very good one and has a built-in non-return valve in the cold port to stop it thermosyphoning back up the cold pipe.  It's a serviceable device and you can get a kit for it.

 

Also the 3-in one stop/filter/check valve (no 4) is upside down.  It'll still work OK, but if you open it to clean the filter all the crap will fall down inside the valve before you can get it out.

 

 

Thanks for the extra info.  I found a Tab label on valve #6 shows that is is a Methven. Found a price a $259... quite high but is in the ball park of similar valves. Methven has good techo info on their web site and I saw that there is what appears to be a kit of bits. Would be a cheaper repair. A close up photo of #6 shows hemp sticking out of the side, so I guess it has been repaired before... I have been in the house 3 years now.

 

Interesting info on stop valve #4.... I would have fitted it the way is is installed now.... :-)

 

Thanks...

 

 





Gordy

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  Reply # 1883225 14-Oct-2017 01:47
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Have you actually tried requesting the meter data? Since that meter says Vector on it, It would almost certainly be owned by Vector AMS. Wells is a company that does meter installations and testing. They probably won't have access to the actual meter data. Since you said that you are signed up to Grey Power electricity. That is a brand of Pulse Energy. Pulse were one of the first companies to use smart meters. So almost certain that meter would be getting read remotely. Since it is a 3 Phase meter, they would have wired up the hot water cylinder to 1 of the current sensors, and the rest of the house load to a different current sensor. The screen most likely would have been configured to only show the total usage across all phases. While you need the per phase usage data to see what the hot water only usage is.

 

Just request the meter data. Have you tried Logging into the Grey power / Pulse website to see if they make the meter data available online?








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  Reply # 1883233 14-Oct-2017 06:34
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Aredwood:

 

Have you actually tried requesting the meter data? Since that meter says Vector on it, It would almost certainly be owned by Vector AMS. Wells is a company that does meter installations and testing. They probably won't have access to the actual meter data. Since you said that you are signed up to Grey Power electricity. That is a brand of Pulse Energy. Pulse were one of the first companies to use smart meters. So almost certain that meter would be getting read remotely. Since it is a 3 Phase meter, they would have wired up the hot water cylinder to 1 of the current sensors, and the rest of the house load to a different current sensor. The screen most likely would have been configured to only show the total usage across all phases. While you need the per phase usage data to see what the hot water only usage is.

 

Just request the meter data. Have you tried Logging into the Grey power / Pulse website to see if they make the meter data available online?

 

 

I have emailed GPe and they have not been able to make the data available.

 

I did a bit of a search for NGC (shown on one label in hand writing) and also searched for Vector NGC, but didn't get anywhere. Smart meter was installed in October 2016.

 

I also found that EDMI make an optical port read head. No luck finding price and source on this. There are some look-alikes on ebay for a pretty high price.

 

The security camera idea sort of works. I don't have to go outside to read the meter. The Dahua IP camera seems to have a problem (or limitation) with short time scheduling and the poor contrast of the meter LCD screen makes motion sensing pretty much impossible.

 

However, I am in the process of gathering data. Firstly with all the plumbing as is. Later I will gather data with the cold water feed valve at the bottom of the cylinder turned off.

 

So far the standing losses look to be only 25% compared to the rough figures I estimated using data from my smart phone earlier.

 

Also it is beginning to look like some cowboy has been working on the system. Inlet valve #4 installed upside down. Cylinder water temperature too low because of the faulty tempering valve. Very little lagging on the hot pipes near the cylinder.

 

 





Gordy



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  Reply # 1883254 14-Oct-2017 09:23
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mclean:

 

Also the 3-in one stop/filter/check valve (no 4) is upside down.  It'll still work OK, but if you open it to clean the filter all the crap will fall down inside the valve before you can get it out.

 

 

When I get around to do some plumbing maintenance I will turn that stop/filter/check valve #4 round the correct way. Hopefully then, the crap will fall out as intended when I take the top off.

 

It is interesting that this valve is well documented to have the handle downwards and even the logo on the casting only reads correctly when mounted as recommended.





Gordy

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  Reply # 1883264 14-Oct-2017 09:57
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Gordy7:

mclean:


Also the 3-in one stop/filter/check valve (no 4) is upside down.  It'll still work OK, but if you open it to clean the filter all the crap will fall down inside the valve before you can get it out.



When I get around to do some plumbing maintenance I will turn that stop/filter/check valve #4 round the correct way. Hopefully then, the crap will fall out as intended when I take the top off.


It is interesting that this valve is well documented to have the handle downwards and even the logo on the casting only reads correctly when mounted as recommended.



FWIW I've been at this address about 30 years without having to clean that filter. If I was concerned about crud in the incoming water I'd put a strainer outside rather than the back of a cupboard.

As far as thermosiphoning goes have you done Arewood's "turn off valve 10 test" yet?

My oldest HWC is 1997 but is still polyurethane insulated. The outside of the tank is not warm. Once the hot pipe drops down a bit it is cold. If your hot pipe below the tempering valve is hot you must have some flow going on. 50 at the top of the tank and 47 at the outlet of the tempering valve seems wrong. I would have thought there'd have to be a bigger difference. Normally a tank is at least 60.




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  Reply # 1883269 14-Oct-2017 10:13
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Bung:

 

 

 

FWIW I've been at this address about 30 years without having to clean that filter. If I was concerned about crud in the incoming water I'd put a strainer outside rather than the back of a cupboard.

As far as thermosiphoning goes have you done Arewood's "turn off valve 10 test" yet?

My oldest HWC is 1997 but is still polyurethane insulated. The outside of the tank is not warm. Once the hot pipe drops down a bit it is cold. If your hot pipe below the tempering valve is hot you must have some flow going on. 50 at the top of the tank and 47 at the outlet of the tempering valve seems wrong. I would have thought there'd have to be a bigger difference. Normally a tank is at least 60.

 

I will turn the valve #4 up the other way and check what crud is present. I there is heaps of crud I will consider an outside strainer. I am still getting to understand this house and water supply,

 

My cylinder is about the same age as yours. The outside is only slightly warm... Maybe just heating within the cupboard.

 

I am about to do the Arewood's test by turning off valve #10...

 

As there is no direct hot water delivered to any tap, I figured my best option is to just measure the cylinder temperature on the outside of the top pipe. I see that various hot water system suppliers recommend running hot water directly to kitchen and laundry. That is not the case in my house. Tempered hot water is delivered to all hot water outlets.

 

The tempered outlet pipe is a little cooler than the hot pipe. I figured that there will be some heat conduction through the copper.

 

When I get the tempering valve fixed I will raise the cylinder temperature.

 

 





Gordy

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