Lead Carbon batteries

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Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#225720 2-Dec-2017 13:48

Looking into battery options for a remote off grid site

Anyone have any experience with lead carbon batteries? Looking at them they clearly seem to have an enormous amount of advantages over standard AGM but do they live up to the claims?

IE DOD cycles

Vision AGM:

30% 1300
50% 500
100% 250

C & D) Lead Carbon
10% 6200
20% 5700
50% 2000
80% 1200
100% 600

Hitek solar claim even longer than C & D by the looks of it their batteries are made by Narada Power.

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Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#1912001 2-Dec-2017 15:30

I am also interested as well.

linw

2496 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#1912231 3-Dec-2017 11:49

Thanks for the education - had to google them!

Knowing quite a bit about Lithium batteries, I must admit I would be happier with a large bank of Lead Carbon cells in my house!

gumboot19

52 posts

Master Geek

#1912240 3-Dec-2017 12:18

Lusty and Blundell now distribute a range of lead crystal batteries in NZ

they have sold quite a few lately. It would be interesting to read your thoughts on them.

Darren

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1912248 3-Dec-2017 12:42

Stan:

Looking into battery options for a remote off grid site

Anyone have any experience with lead carbon batteries? Looking at them they clearly seem to have an enormous amount of advantages over standard AGM but do they live up to the claims?

IE DOD cycles

Vision AGM:

30% 1300
50% 500
100% 250

C & D) Lead Carbon
10% 6200
20% 5700
50% 2000
80% 1200
100% 600

Hitek solar claim even longer than C & D by the looks of it their batteries are made by Narada Power.

Had a chat with the Hitek solar guys they say the reason why the C & D batteries are less cycles is because they are designed more for UPS/hospital battery (so less cycling annually) I guess this explains the lower accepted charging rate of the hitek/narada batteries.

For reference:

Also worth noting that the Narada lead carbon batteries are also sold here as Giantpower by Solarking but they only import 2v models.

I have come across this model as well but I am unfamiliar with the manufacturer (maybe someone else here is?):

http://waveinverter.co.nz/Lead-Carbon-200AH

Sidestep

984 posts

Ultimate Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1912619 4-Dec-2017 12:49

Hukatere Lodge's battery bank was replaced with Narada Lead Carbon a few months back.

Because of the nature of her business the existing lead acid bank had been subject to partial cycling and sulfation.

In a decade or so I'll be able to tell you whether they're as good as predicted.

Coil

6614 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1912636 4-Dec-2017 13:03

I have heard good things and had some people asking of them.
On the market for a new DIN75 or 85 car battery so if one of these suit maybe I'll try it if it isnt too costly.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1912768 4-Dec-2017 16:34

Coil:

I have heard good things and had some people asking of them.
On the market for a new DIN75 or 85 car battery so if one of these suit maybe I'll try it if it isnt too costly.

Car batteries are more made for a short lager amounts of power (CCA) not really deep cycle so lead carbon probably would not suit as these are designed for longer slower drains but many more cycles.

Well thats the way I understand it.

Aredwood

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#1912791 4-Dec-2017 16:57

I just want to know why Lead carbon batteries are so expensive. Same with lead crystal. AFAIK they don't contain any exotic rare earth metals.

Is it just patents? Or waiting for a Chinese company to copy the design, and force the rest of the market to drop it's prices.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1912871 4-Dec-2017 19:07

Aredwood: I just want to know why Lead carbon batteries are so expensive. Same with lead crystal. AFAIK they don't contain any exotic rare earth metals.

Is it just patents? Or waiting for a Chinese company to copy the design, and force the rest of the market to drop it's prices.

They are not too bad when compared to lead acid AGM from my research

I got quoted $298 inc GST for these 2v 300ah batteries from solarking

Doing some maths on the battery pricing compared to lithium Lgchem it works out cheaper.

24 x 300ah = 14.4kw @ $7152

5.8kw @ 40% DOD 5000 Cycles

LG Chem 6.4 (5.9kw usable) $8000 3200 cycles down to 60% capacity.

I think that works out..

raytaylor

3678 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1914168 6-Dec-2017 23:00

Aredwood: I just want to know why Lead carbon batteries are so expensive. Same with lead crystal. AFAIK they don't contain any exotic rare earth metals.

Is it just patents? Or waiting for a Chinese company to copy the design, and force the rest of the market to drop it's prices.

They weigh almost twice as much as a standard AGM sealed battery, so I am guessing its much to do with the shipping cost.

Ray Taylor

There is no place like localhost

desultory

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1919976 15-Dec-2017 08:10

If you actually look at std AGM batteries, yes they are quite cheap but their cycle count is very low.

When you consider that your set of lead carbon batteries will last typically 3x the length of time, and yet DON'T even cost twice the price then that doesn't make them a bad investment at all actually.

Typically as a general rule lead carbon pricing is about HALF the price per kWh of storage compared with lithium today, and remember yes none of the fire hazzard / explosion / safety risks associated with Lithium and NO BMS is needed either.

I personally run a 14.4kW lead carbon battery set at my own place and have done for 4 years now, it gets ran down each day between 60-80% DOD (Depth of discharge) and yet when I test the batteries they're still showing and testing like they were when they were still new (eg only about 2% degradation). In the winter I run mine down to 80% DOD every day, so they get a massive workout for 4 months of the year of the winter period and are cycled hard. Over the summer period (like now) I run the Aircon all night every night (100% free) using the stored energy in the lead carbon batteries, and by 7am in the morning the batteries are only down to 50% of their storage capacity and are charging back up from solar again.

By 11.30am at this time of year (on nice sunny summer days) the batteries are back to full charge again which is awesome just how quickly they can charge up again (I charge mine at about 2.96kW per hour rate which works out about 56Amps of current). My current solar system generates around 55-62kWh of power per day at the moment which is a good amount, basically power to burn most days of the year and the power company pays me much more back to me as a customer than the tiny amount I pay to them ($150 per year to them, and they pay me $200 per year + $600 tect cheque), you can't ask for better than that.

My next place I'm building to move into next year I'll be running 43.2kW of lead carbon storage there and it will be setup for fast charging of my EV car (once it arrives) which will be awesome being able to charge the car 100% from solar PV and free stored power rather than using grid power for weekly charging.

Any questions please ask, thanks.

Stan

929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1920672 16-Dec-2017 21:26

desultory:

If you actually look at std AGM batteries, yes they are quite cheap but their cycle count is very low.

When you consider that your set of lead carbon batteries will last typically 3x the length of time, and yet DON'T even cost twice the price then that doesn't make them a bad investment at all actually.

Typically as a general rule lead carbon pricing is about HALF the price per kWh of storage compared with lithium today, and remember yes none of the fire hazzard / explosion / safety risks associated with Lithium and NO BMS is needed either.

I personally run a 14.4kW lead carbon battery set at my own place and have done for 4 years now, it gets ran down each day between 60-80% DOD (Depth of discharge) and yet when I test the batteries they're still showing and testing like they were when they were still new (eg only about 2% degradation). In the winter I run mine down to 80% DOD every day, so they get a massive workout for 4 months of the year of the winter period and are cycled hard. Over the summer period (like now) I run the Aircon all night every night (100% free) using the stored energy in the lead carbon batteries, and by 7am in the morning the batteries are only down to 50% of their storage capacity and are charging back up from solar again.

By 11.30am at this time of year (on nice sunny summer days) the batteries are back to full charge again which is awesome just how quickly they can charge up again (I charge mine at about 2.96kW per hour rate which works out about 56Amps of current). My current solar system generates around 55-62kWh of power per day at the moment which is a good amount, basically power to burn most days of the year and the power company pays me much more back to me as a customer than the tiny amount I pay to them ($150 per year to them, and they pay me $200 per year + $600 tect cheque), you can't ask for better than that.

My next place I'm building to move into next year I'll be running 43.2kW of lead carbon storage there and it will be setup for fast charging of my EV car (once it arrives) which will be awesome being able to charge the car 100% from solar PV and free stored power rather than using grid power for weekly charging.

Any questions please ask, thanks.

Thats a nice set up. What brand of lead carbon batteries did you go for? What (grid tied) inverter system did you go for?

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1920674 16-Dec-2017 21:49

desultory: My next place I'm building to move into next year I'll be running 43.2kW of lead carbon storage there and it will be setup for fast charging of my EV car (once it arrives) which will be awesome being able to charge the car 100% from solar PV and free stored power rather than using grid power for weekly charging.

Any questions please ask, thanks.

Unless you’re retired/work nights/work from home, how big will your Solar Bank need to be to replace the EV’s daily use?
We have the highest ‘payback’ on our Gen1 Leaf as SWMBO drives roughly 90kms a day in commuting and we thus have about 20KWh to replace overnight for her to do the same the next day... buy until the Car batteries can BECOME the house ones... how do you plan to set this up yourself?

desultory

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1920749 17-Dec-2017 11:00

My wife works about 50km away so she drives about 100km of driving per day (just for work) plus any other trips we use the car for during the week. She typically won't have the car back home to plug into charge until around 5pm, hence why it's critical to be able to store energy from the solar during the day to plug the car into charge at night.

Of course if there's 1-2 days of bad weather then we'll try to avoid charging during periods of bad weather, unless the car is basically empty and we really need to put charge into it. The car we'll be charging will be the 75kW 4wd Tesla model 3, expected to come sometime Q1 2019 (we ordered it the 1st day ordering online was available last year).

I'm also likely going to be getting an EV van for local pickups / deliveries of items coming or going to local client sites etc, so that'll also need to be charging up daily in addition to the Tesla charging about 3-4 times over a 7 day period (depending on trips and battery capacity used).

At my current place I'm running 2 x 5kW inverters and a 5kW charger also that connects to the 14.4kW battery set, so I can have a max 5kW output capacity during the evenings right now and 10kW peak output capacity during the daytime (from solar + battery storage combined), but at my new place that I'll be moving into next year I want that peak output capacity to be 20kW from solar + battery storage combined and 10kW AC output from battery storage alone in the evenings.

I may end up having to use 4 x 5kW Single phase inverters or else maybe 2 x 10kW 3 phase hybrid inverters, depending on what options are available at the time I setup my new site next year, right now the 3 phase hybrid inverters that I could consider are not even released yet so if I was doing the site today I'd be forced to use 4 x 5kW single phase inverters and be running 10kW worth of inverters over 2 phases which would give me 14kW charge rate per hour (via 2 phase) into the Tesla which isn't a bad rate for home charging with FREE power for sure.

The site will also be powering a business + a home + excess power going to back to the grid to feed 5 family / friends via a power sharing program with 50kWh per friend per month also. So yes the power will always be going to a good use rather than simply being wasted.

I actually design solar power + battery storage systems, so if anybody has any questions please let me know thanks.

desultory

6 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1920750 17-Dec-2017 11:01

Using Narada Lead Carbon batteries also, sorry I forgot to mention.

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