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706 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1920071 15-Dec-2017 10:49
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Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

 

 

 

You can't be serious?

 

You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension


BTR

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  Reply # 1920098 15-Dec-2017 11:35
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I am not sure how big your extension is but if your only saving $30-40 is it really worth it? Considering your saving is $2 per unit. 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1920141 15-Dec-2017 12:32
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I won't even touch jobs where clients want to supply their own gear, not worth the time or hassle.


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  Reply # 1920189 15-Dec-2017 13:36
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As long as the client is providing quality hardware, eg PDL, I can’t see why it makes any difference. The warranty on the hardware itself is with whoever the client buys it from. If a switch fails, that is a fault with the hardware and not the electricians problem, unless it wasn’t installed to the manufacturers guidelines. Also the client may want to buy designer lights which are already expensive and they have already done the research etc with the supplier, so why shouldn’t they be able to buy those and supply them to the builder to install? 
Also what happens if the electrician goes out of business, say after a couple of years? My local one recently went into liquidation, and there would be no way to now claim on warranty issues with installation, as who do you go to?  I imagine any warranty on the hardware would be very difficult to claim, whereas if you buy directly from a hardware supplier, you will have have the invoice for that from as proof of purchase. IMO there are pros and cons whichever way you do it and I can see it from both sides. 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1920191 15-Dec-2017 13:38
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BTR:

I am not sure how big your extension is but if your only saving $30-40 is it really worth it? Considering your saving is $2 per unit. 



It was including around 50 lights as well which are not cheap . it wasn't so much the price difference more the point is this this normal industry practise and how often are customers made aware of this practise or do tradies hide this in their bills
,

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  Reply # 1920193 15-Dec-2017 13:42
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Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.


While we're at it this whole 6 year medical degree is just protectionism. We should also remove the need for certification for commercial pilots.

Glurp
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  Reply # 1920218 15-Dec-2017 13:53
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Handle9:
Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.


While we're at it this whole 6 year medical degree is just protectionism. We should also remove the need for certification for commercial pilots.

 

A few people here seem awfully defensive about this. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1920241 15-Dec-2017 14:47
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Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:
Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.


While we're at it this whole 6 year medical degree is just protectionism. We should also remove the need for certification for commercial pilots.

 

A few people here seem awfully defensive about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a really good reason why it's a registered trade, electricity is dangerous stuff, you need specific proven competent skills to legally do the work. that's not been defensive, it's common sense


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  Reply # 1920244 15-Dec-2017 14:58
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gregmcc:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Handle9:
Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.


While we're at it this whole 6 year medical degree is just protectionism. We should also remove the need for certification for commercial pilots.

 

A few people here seem awfully defensive about this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a really good reason why it's a registered trade, electricity is dangerous stuff, you need specific proven competent skills to legally do the work. that's not been defensive, it's common sense

 

 

 

 

I know plenty O' electricians who are qualified and blow people up on the regular and have shocking work that I as an apprentice would notice and disagree with. I would be scared if the training we offer currently was to be reduced. Worksafe would have a field day.

 

Out of the trade now and I wish I was not but heck, I had to keep my head above water at the expense of my future.

The Govt is happy to put people through a BCOM but not supplement a tradesman (Which they are screaming out for) to live in Auckland and get qualified for something actually useful. Shove it where the sun don't shine Govt! 





 


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  Reply # 1920253 15-Dec-2017 15:13
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gregmcc:

 

There is a really good reason why it's a registered trade, electricity is dangerous stuff, you need specific proven competent skills to legally do the work. that's not been defensive, it's common sense

 

 

I'd have to agree .
When I did my Techy Elect Cert , So I could change plugs ...
there were guys in that course who honestly were clueless .
So thats a reflection of the public in general, most people shouldnt be allowed anywhere
near any voltages potentially fatal. So Im not sure why its Ok to let home owners doing some wiring on their house .

 

Yes alot is common sense , and not really that hard once shown how, but so many just have zero skills for this sort of thing .
Competent skills : many dont have them. So we have laws & regs to protect us.

 

 


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  Reply # 1920254 15-Dec-2017 15:14
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Dunnersfella:

 

You know if the customer is trying to save a few $ buy buying the own parts, they are probably going to be a cheap & problematic customer

 

 

 

 

 

THIS!!!

 

 

Sorry - don't agree many clued up customers by their own fittings to ensure they get a certain quality.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1920272 15-Dec-2017 15:57
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Rikkitic:

 

I believe in America home-owners are allowed to do their own electrical work. I would be interested to know if the stats for electrocution or house fires are significantly higher there.

 

 

I wired a couple of my own houses.
A homeowner - in his own house - was permitted to do the plumbing, gasfitting and all the wiring from the house side of the breaker panel, also to trench in the supply from the pole to the house and up to the meter box (but not connect it)

 

It wasn't a free-for-all. Permitted meant I had to get a "homeowner's electrical permit" from the county (valid for 12 months).
Then two inspections were required (at $75 each).

 

One with the wiring 'roughed in':
All cables and outlet boxes installed and secured in place.
• Grounding conductors terminated in outlet boxes.
• Splices completed.
• Rough wiring visible i.e. walls are open with no insulation or vapour barrier installed.

 

A second 'final inspection':
Switches, plugs etc connected and secured to outlet boxes with covers on.
• Branch circuits installed in breaker panel, connected to breakers, and labelled.
• Corrections (if any) from rough wiring inspection completed.

The fact that the wiring was done by the homeowner would always be visible to any potential home buyer, but I didn't find it attracted any stigma - my insurance wasn't affected and there were no issues when selling the houses. The inspectors were pretty thorough (and told me a good percentage of homeowner wired houses failed initial - and re-inspection).

 

In spite of it being an option the county office told me very few homeowners actually applied to wire their own houses, the majority paid licensed electrical contractors to do it for them.
I guess the problem with offering this in NZ would be every 'give it a go' Kiwi would immediately wire their own house, and their mates, and the girlfriends.. creating a surge of electrocutions, fireballs and sewage floods before things settled down.


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1920298 15-Dec-2017 17:12
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Fred99:

 

kobiak:

 

What kills me the most is travel to job cost (call out fee even if the guy can't fix it, or quote ridiculous price), what the hell?

 

 

Callout fees are perfectly reasonable - and needed.  If service people / firms didn't charge them, then there wouldn't be a service industry - you'd be better off on the dole or working for Maccas.

 

 

 

 

I live in a small North Island town and several tradies charge a $35 vehicle fee even though it only takes 15 minute to get from one side of the town to the other in peak hour traffic. I am not sure if this includes the time it takes them to go to the local supplier to get the part, as they don't normally carry much in their vans and they need to go to the local cafe on the way to get their morning or afternoon tea. We also have one that charges a $25 admin fee as well.

 

I can under stand the minimum call out fee which is normally $60-$70ish but all the add on fees maybe not.

 

A recent case we had was to get the shower rose, which we supplied as we have a family member that works at a repeatable nationwide hardware store, changed on my elderly mother in laws shower. The plumber was there for 15-20 minutes max, would have spent 10 to 15 minutes traveling to and from the location and with the minimum callout fee and the addons the job came to $135. I bit steep I thought?

 

 


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1920300 15-Dec-2017 17:19
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sen8or:

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.


 


You can't be serious?


You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension



Fail, how so? I simply stated an opinion and was quite clear that the safety aspect is key.

I believe the apprenticeship system is outdated and is an impediment to progress. We need to attract smarter people into the building field to get better outcomes than what we currently have.

The internet has changed things such that anyone with any analytical bent can pick up knowledge in a field extremely quickly. We need to change our methods of accrediting knowledge to reflect that.

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  Reply # 1920305 15-Dec-2017 17:29
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Lastman:
sen8or:

 

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can't be serious?

 

 

 

You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension

 



Fail, how so? I simply stated an opinion and was quite clear that the safety aspect is key.

I believe the apprenticeship system is outdated and is an impediment to progress. We need to attract smarter people into the building field to get better outcomes than what we currently have.

The internet has changed things such that anyone with any analytical bent can pick up knowledge in a field extremely quickly. We need to change our methods of accrediting knowledge to reflect that.

 

 

 

I challenge you to prove the point, here is a quite important question, how would you do a earth loop impedance test on a standard power point circuit (power available), what kind of result would be a pass, what kind of result would be a fail, and the same test with no power available.

 

This is a everyday test any domestic electrician should be able to preform, maybe google would be able to help you out........

 

 

 

 


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