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  Reply # 1948670 30-Jan-2018 15:41
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cadman:

 

Sounddude:

 

As a coastguard volunteer, I tend to do a lot of jumpstarts of people with flat batteries who can no longer start their engines.

 

If you can, I highly recommend keeping your starter motor battery separate from your house batteries (fish finder, radio etc).

 

That way you can always get yourself home, no matter how long you spend sitting and fishing.

 

 

Regardless of their membership status, there should be a surcharge for this sort of blatant "she'll be right" stupidity. It's not exactly unforeseen.

 

When Coastguard started offering unlimited assists I ceased being a member. In my mind it simply encourages the irresponsible at the expense of the responsible. I feel that's reflected in the membership cost rising from IIRC $35 p.a. to $115 p.a. since.

 

 

Seems a bit harsh. Not really stupidity by the skipper if a wiring fault or alternator fault or battery fault or wife leaving the toaster on fault (or an electrical design fault) causes a flat battery. Most of them are not as electrical savvy as us wonks. I've rarely if ever seen a production run-about in the < 7m range with separate engine and house batteries - only seen that in vessels that are intended and fitted out for overnight stays.

 

On the other hand, really dumb stuff like not checking the gas tank... I agree completely!

 

 


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  Reply # 1948688 30-Jan-2018 16:02
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kryptonjohn:

 

cadman:

 

Sounddude:

 

As a coastguard volunteer, I tend to do a lot of jumpstarts of people with flat batteries who can no longer start their engines.

 

If you can, I highly recommend keeping your starter motor battery separate from your house batteries (fish finder, radio etc).

 

That way you can always get yourself home, no matter how long you spend sitting and fishing.

 

 

Regardless of their membership status, there should be a surcharge for this sort of blatant "she'll be right" stupidity. It's not exactly unforeseen.

 

When Coastguard started offering unlimited assists I ceased being a member. In my mind it simply encourages the irresponsible at the expense of the responsible. I feel that's reflected in the membership cost rising from IIRC $35 p.a. to $115 p.a. since.

 

 

Seems a bit harsh. Not really stupidity by the skipper if a wiring fault or alternator fault or battery fault or wife leaving the toaster on fault (or an electrical design fault) causes a flat battery. Most of them are not as electrical savvy as us wonks. I've rarely if ever seen a production run-about in the < 7m range with separate engine and house batteries - only seen that in vessels that are intended and fitted out for overnight stays.

 

On the other hand, really dumb stuff like not checking the gas tank... I agree completely!

 

 

Mine is 6.4m and I can pull start the twin engines. I still have twin batteries and twin fuel storage with one handheld and one fixed VHF.

 

Sure, a newly developed fault is one thing (although you should have an alternative means of propulsion anyway) but rare - on any boat large enough to have an engine you can't pull start you should have instruments to show it's not charging or overcharging and a low voltage alarm.

 

But running the fishfinder or radio off a single battery and just hoping for the best... plain dumb. If you can't afford to install system to isolate your starting battery, you really can't afford to be boating. My mate used to just use a SLA completely isolated to do that duty in his 14' Ramco. So I say hit them in the pocket. Hard - until their eyes water. Maybe then they'll learn to take some responsibility for themselves.





"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1948698 30-Jan-2018 16:08
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kryptonjohn:

 

cadman:

 

Sounddude:

 

As a coastguard volunteer, I tend to do a lot of jumpstarts of people with flat batteries who can no longer start their engines.

 

If you can, I highly recommend keeping your starter motor battery separate from your house batteries (fish finder, radio etc).

 

That way you can always get yourself home, no matter how long you spend sitting and fishing.

 

 

Regardless of their membership status, there should be a surcharge for this sort of blatant "she'll be right" stupidity. It's not exactly unforeseen.

 

When Coastguard started offering unlimited assists I ceased being a member. In my mind it simply encourages the irresponsible at the expense of the responsible. I feel that's reflected in the membership cost rising from IIRC $35 p.a. to $115 p.a. since.

 

 

Seems a bit harsh. Not really stupidity by the skipper if a wiring fault or alternator fault or battery fault or wife leaving the toaster on fault (or an electrical design fault) causes a flat battery. Most of them are not as electrical savvy as us wonks. I've rarely if ever seen a production run-about in the < 7m range with separate engine and house batteries - only seen that in vessels that are intended and fitted out for overnight stays.

 

On the other hand, really dumb stuff like not checking the gas tank... I agree completely!

 

 

 

 

Well there's a fundamental problem with charging punitively - and that is those needing assistance may not call for it in a timely manner because they expect a cost - and that will definitely endanger innocent lives.

 

 


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  Reply # 1948704 30-Jan-2018 16:20
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cadman:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

cadman:

 

Sounddude:

 

As a coastguard volunteer, I tend to do a lot of jumpstarts of people with flat batteries who can no longer start their engines.

 

If you can, I highly recommend keeping your starter motor battery separate from your house batteries (fish finder, radio etc).

 

That way you can always get yourself home, no matter how long you spend sitting and fishing.

 

 

Regardless of their membership status, there should be a surcharge for this sort of blatant "she'll be right" stupidity. It's not exactly unforeseen.

 

When Coastguard started offering unlimited assists I ceased being a member. In my mind it simply encourages the irresponsible at the expense of the responsible. I feel that's reflected in the membership cost rising from IIRC $35 p.a. to $115 p.a. since.

 

 

Seems a bit harsh. Not really stupidity by the skipper if a wiring fault or alternator fault or battery fault or wife leaving the toaster on fault (or an electrical design fault) causes a flat battery. Most of them are not as electrical savvy as us wonks. I've rarely if ever seen a production run-about in the < 7m range with separate engine and house batteries - only seen that in vessels that are intended and fitted out for overnight stays.

 

On the other hand, really dumb stuff like not checking the gas tank... I agree completely!

 

 

Mine is 6.4m and I can pull start the twin engines. I still have twin batteries and twin fuel storage with one handheld and one fixed VHF.

 

Sure, a newly developed fault is one thing (although you should have an alternative means of propulsion anyway) but rare - on any boat large enough to have an engine you can't pull start you should have instruments to show it's not charging or overcharging and a low voltage alarm.

 

But running the fishfinder or radio off a single battery and just hoping for the best... plain dumb. If you can't afford to install system to isolate your starting battery, you really can't afford to be boating. My mate used to just use a SLA completely isolated to do that duty in his 14' Ramco. So I say hit them in the pocket. Hard - until their eyes water. Maybe then they'll learn to take some responsibility for themselves.

 

 

Yeah but it's not about afford. It's about understand. Plenty of wealthy but clueless types in boats. But most people these days don't understand a thing about electrical circuits. If the runabout manufacturers aren't shipping them with separate batteries then they'd be none the wiser.

 

Despite their stretched resources, nobody I know at the CG is calling for charges for their members' call-outs. Probably because their members are usually educated and do less dumb stuff and they are already charging non members to rescue them. 

 

My current boat is a tournament setup outboard powered ski boat that just cannot go in open water. Single battery and single engine and the only draining electrics are the stereo and whatever's in the 12VDC socket. If it breaks down I can just paddle it to the side of the river or slalom course. It's a 2.5L V6 EFI Merc - in the old days they'd put a pull cord in a bag taped inside the cowl but Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime would struggle to spin up those engines.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1948712 30-Jan-2018 16:35
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Fred99:

 

Well there's a fundamental problem with charging punitively - and that is those needing assistance may not call for it in a timely manner because they expect a cost - and that will definitely endanger innocent lives.

 

 

While certainly a possibility in some instances, that too is the responsibility and burden of the Skipper, not me. But we're straying way off-topic now.





"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill


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  Reply # 1948714 30-Jan-2018 16:40
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Fred99:

 

Well there's a fundamental problem with charging punitively - and that is those needing assistance may not call for it in a timely manner because they expect a cost - and that will definitely endanger innocent lives.

 

 

Agreed. For the same reason people don't get charged by St Johns for attending their emergencies no matter how stupid or culpable they were (ACC picks up the tab for accidents, Govt for illness). Same for land rescue. 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1948722 30-Jan-2018 16:48
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kryptonjohn:

 

Yeah but it's not about afford. It's about understand. Plenty of wealthy but clueless types in boats. But most people these days don't understand a thing about electrical circuits. If the runabout manufacturers aren't shipping them with separate batteries then they'd be none the wiser.

 

I agree - the "all the gear and no idea" crowd are rife in all aspects of life. Personally, I'd hate to see a sea-worthy certificate and Skipper licence system implemented but irresponsibility on the water is pushing us that way. Australia already has a recreational Skipper licence system.

 

kryptonjohn: Despite their stretched resources, nobody I know at the CG is calling for charges for their members' call-outs. Probably because their members are usually educated and do less dumb stuff and they are already charging non members to rescue them.

 

I'm more concerned that it sends the wrong message than anything "We've got your dumb arse covered. Do whatever you want". That encourages them to be out on the water... near me.

 

kryptonjohn:

 

My current boat is a tournament setup outboard powered ski boat that just cannot go in open water. Single battery and single engine and the only draining electrics are the stereo and whatever's in the 12VDC socket. If it breaks down I can just paddle it to the side of the river or slalom course. It's a 2.5L V6 EFI Merc - in the old days they'd put a pull cord in a bag taped inside the cowl but Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime would struggle to spin up those engines.

 

That seems to be a reasonably appropriate alternative means of propulsion to me given the likely proximity of other boats and relative distances to shore involved. But the number of people on the briny in heavy tidal flows without even that is rather astonishing.





"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill


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  Reply # 1948723 30-Jan-2018 16:58
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kryptonjohn:

 

Fred99:

 

Well there's a fundamental problem with charging punitively - and that is those needing assistance may not call for it in a timely manner because they expect a cost - and that will definitely endanger innocent lives.

 

 

Agreed. For the same reason people don't get charged by St Johns for attending their emergencies no matter how stupid or culpable they were (ACC picks up the tab for accidents, Govt for illness). Same for land rescue. 

 

 

I for one am not talking about 'accidents' - rather wilful ignorance.





"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill


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  Reply # 1948725 30-Jan-2018 17:05
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cadman:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

Fred99:

 

Well there's a fundamental problem with charging punitively - and that is those needing assistance may not call for it in a timely manner because they expect a cost - and that will definitely endanger innocent lives.

 

 

Agreed. For the same reason people don't get charged by St Johns for attending their emergencies no matter how stupid or culpable they were (ACC picks up the tab for accidents, Govt for illness). Same for land rescue. 

 

 

I for one am not talking about 'accidents' - rather wilful ignorance.

 

 

You are aware that a lot of (non marine) accidents and indeed sudden illnesses attended to by St Johns could also be described as the result of "wilful ignorance"?




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  Reply # 1948726 30-Jan-2018 17:11
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With respect to free speech, I suggest any further discussions around the emergency response and the causes for it are shifted to a separate thread. Seems like a weighty topic best explored in full elsewhere.


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  Reply # 1948788 30-Jan-2018 18:39
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Anyway back on topic, if you are going to be using any kind of alternator. There are lots of alternator models that will cause an over voltage situation if the battery gets disconnected while the engine is running. Even if the alternator has an inbuilt voltage regulator. This also applies to cars and anything else that uses alternators.

So another advantage of having both a house battery and starting battery. Is that you can configure the wiring so the failure of a single connection won't cause open loop alternator output to appear on your radio and other important loads.





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  Reply # 1949159 31-Jan-2018 11:38
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Aredwood: Anyway back on topic, if you are going to be using any kind of alternator. There are lots of alternator models that will cause an over voltage situation if the battery gets disconnected while the engine is running. Even if the alternator has an inbuilt voltage regulator. This also applies to cars and anything else that uses alternators.

So another advantage of having both a house battery and starting battery. Is that you can configure the wiring so the failure of a single connection won't cause open loop alternator output to appear on your radio and other important loads.

 

The OP's engine will likely have a stator rather than an alternator.  Probably with a voltage regulator. Not sure if that makes any difference to the issue you are outlining

 

 





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  Reply # 1949205 31-Jan-2018 12:30
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I installed a 2x12A charger on-board for the two deep cycle trolling motor batteries. Now we simply back the boat into the shed, plug the charger into mains power, connect another C-tek to the start battery, and leave them to do their thing. We were advised to keep the two circuits completely separate when we installed the dual battery/trolling motor setup. I must say the Minn Kota i-pilot is a nice bit of kit, works extremely well as a sea anchor.

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