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Kickinbac
305 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2052896 10-Jul-2018 19:51
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We have a general rule of thumb that heat pumps 5.0 kw and over had to be wired back to the switchboard. We would connect into a power ciricuit if under 5.0 kw and it’s not a kitchen circuit otherwise the circuit breaker trips when the heat pump is running and you use the toaster or kettle etc. We always get an electrician to do this work.
There are lots of cowboys out there doing heat pump installs, many are illegally done but they are generally cheap installs. Only a registered electrician can legally do fixed wiring on your house and you should get an electrical COC. If you are not happy or are concerned about the workmanship get an electrician to inspect it and/or get the EWRB involved.
Most electricians are keen to protect their jobs and stop cowboys.

Hibino

164 posts

Master Geek


  #2053019 11-Jul-2018 00:07
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Hello all guys, there is nothing to update today since the installer didn't contact me yet.

 

I am writing a complain letter with facts I found together with detailed photos. It will be sent to both Noel Leeming and Fujitsu tomorrow night if the installer doesn't contact me tomorrow daytime.

 

 

 

nickb800: What I find is that it is not ok to wire the heat pump into my old rewireable ceramic fuse since a rewireable fuse is only allowed to install 2 plug sockets, anything more that that will require an MCB. It can be remained in service, but it is not allowed to have any wiring added to the circuit, and it is not allowed to be used for fault protection, or overcurrent protection of newly installed cables.

 

 

 

Kickinbac: Yes I found the following document from EECA, in section 9.0 it is stated “Inverter units with a heat output of 5kW or greater must be connected to a separate circuit”. But it is a good practice guide so not law enforced. He will not get away with not providing a valid CoC for the installation.

 

https://www.energywise.govt.nz/assets/Resources-Energywise/EECA-Heat-Pump-Installation-Guide-2009-final.pdf

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


Kickinbac
305 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2054553 11-Jul-2018 20:06
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timmmay:

Aredwood:
timmmay:


I have two heat pumps, both on dedicated circuits. I'd talk to NL and have this redone, otherwise I'd try to escalate to whoever registers electricians or such.




What is the running current of your heatpumps? You might simply have larger models. Meaning that the running current could put the circuit right at its limit. Or maybe your existing circuits can't be extended while still complying with the voltage drop rules. Meaning putting the heatpump on a dedicated circuit would probably be cheaper than replacing the cable in that circuit with a larger size.


Not sure about current, but they're 7.5kw heating 8.5kw cooling, which is larger than average. That's probably pushing a bit under 10A.



I wasn’t intentionally quoting that! I just read through it again as had read it several years ago.

bfginger
1158 posts

Uber Geek


  #2064734 30-Jul-2018 04:59
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Any resolution?

 

 


Hibino

164 posts

Master Geek


  #2068321 5-Aug-2018 19:12
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bfginger: Any resolution?

 

Well, I am still in a waiting status... But here are what happened so far:

 

12-July: I sent a complain letter to both NL and Fujitsu, no reply from NL but Fujitsu replied in 2 hours saying they will contact the installer. And after another 30 minutes(well, I waited 4 days for this call) the installer called and said they will come back on 16-July to fix everything.

 

 

 

16-July: the installer came and sealed the outside isolating switch with PVC solvent, replaced the old ceramic fuse with a 20A circuit breaker, but without a dedicated circuit. He said since I will no longer plugin a heater to the wall socket so the 20A circuit breaker will be enough for both the heat pump and all my equipment. He also tidy up things like install a drain pipe to the outside unit instead letting the drainage directly pouring on my firewood.

 

The installer also took a look at the humming noise that is very noticeable in living room. He identified the humming is coming from the outside unit and carried along with the 6 meters pipe that fixed to the wall. The noise from outside unit itself cannot be heard, but it produces a vibration when running at a certain speed and that frequency just happened to vibrate the whole pipe that are firmly attached to the wall, and made the wall goes humming. He said he will come back in a few days to fix this.

 

I emailed Fujitsu regarding all the work the installer has done.

 

 

 

18-July: Fujitsu replied and said things should be all good, and regarding the circuit, according Fujitsu installation instructions, it is advised to install the heat pump on a dedicated circuit but by the circumstances given, this work is acceptable and my 6 years warranty will still be valid. And they will send a tech in 2-3 weeks when the tech visiting Dunedin.

 

 

 

Now: Nothing heard from the installer regarding the humming noise he promised get back in a few days from 16-July. And nothing from Fujitsu tech either... I will call the installer again tomorrow since that's 3 full weeks of waiting I think that's long enough for "a few days".


tdgeek
21495 posts

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  #2068441 6-Aug-2018 08:28
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Hibino:

 

Here are some updates:

 

I went to their office this morning told the receptionist that I am worrying about the safety of the installation, but the receptionist told me the heat pump is meant to be installed onto the wall socket and is perfectly safe.

 

 

Pretty cool that they even get the receptionist trained as an accredited installer, so that she can comment. She probably looked in detail at the install process for your one in their records.... yeah right


bfginger
1158 posts

Uber Geek


  #2380920 24-Dec-2019 13:39
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Kickinbac: We have a general rule of thumb that heat pumps 5.0 kw and over had to be wired back to the switchboard. We would connect into a power ciricuit if under 5.0 kw and it’s not a kitchen circuit otherwise the circuit breaker trips when the heat pump is running and you use the toaster or kettle etc. We always get an electrician to do this work.
There are lots of cowboys out there doing heat pump installs, many are illegally done but they are generally cheap installs. Only a registered electrician can legally do fixed wiring on your house and you should get an electrical COC. If you are not happy or are concerned about the workmanship get an electrician to inspect it and/or get the EWRB involved.
Most electricians are keen to protect their jobs and stop cowboys.

 

Clarity is kind of lacking. This old PDF says "Inverter units with a heat output of 5 kW or more are required to have a dedicated circuit." but that seems arbitrary as output is only vaguely related to input. This Whirlpool thread has a post saying "AS/NZ3000 wiring rules requirement for any install is to install as per manufacturers instructions. if the instructions say a seperate circuit, then by not installing one he is not complying with Australian standards and therefore the Law." so is this the case in New Zealand?

 

Do the outdoors isolaters contain fuses?


 
 
 
 


Kickinbac
305 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2380938 24-Dec-2019 14:34
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bfginger:

Kickinbac: We have a general rule of thumb that heat pumps 5.0 kw and over had to be wired back to the switchboard. We would connect into a power ciricuit if under 5.0 kw and it’s not a kitchen circuit otherwise the circuit breaker trips when the heat pump is running and you use the toaster or kettle etc. We always get an electrician to do this work.
There are lots of cowboys out there doing heat pump installs, many are illegally done but they are generally cheap installs. Only a registered electrician can legally do fixed wiring on your house and you should get an electrical COC. If you are not happy or are concerned about the workmanship get an electrician to inspect it and/or get the EWRB involved.
Most electricians are keen to protect their jobs and stop cowboys.


Clarity is kind of lacking. This old PDF says "Inverter units with a heat output of 5 kW or more are required to have a dedicated circuit." but that seems arbitrary as output is only vaguely related to input. This Whirlpool thread has a post saying "AS/NZ3000 wiring rules requirement for any install is to install as per manufacturers instructions. if the instructions say a seperate circuit, then by not installing one he is not complying with Australian standards and therefore the Law." so is this the case in New Zealand?


Do the outdoors isolaters contain fuses?



It comes down to the electrician doing the installation. One electrician will happily install on an existing power circuit and give you a COC, the other will say no way! The first will charge you $150, the other will be $650. Guess what, cheapest price usually wins the work. The manufacturers don’t give much advice on electrical side apart from complying with AS/NZS3000.

gregmcc
1848 posts

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  #2380967 24-Dec-2019 15:44
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Kickinbac:
bfginger:

 

Kickinbac: We have a general rule of thumb that heat pumps 5.0 kw and over had to be wired back to the switchboard. We would connect into a power ciricuit if under 5.0 kw and it’s not a kitchen circuit otherwise the circuit breaker trips when the heat pump is running and you use the toaster or kettle etc. We always get an electrician to do this work.
There are lots of cowboys out there doing heat pump installs, many are illegally done but they are generally cheap installs. Only a registered electrician can legally do fixed wiring on your house and you should get an electrical COC. If you are not happy or are concerned about the workmanship get an electrician to inspect it and/or get the EWRB involved.
Most electricians are keen to protect their jobs and stop cowboys.

 

 

 

Clarity is kind of lacking. This old PDF says "Inverter units with a heat output of 5 kW or more are required to have a dedicated circuit." but that seems arbitrary as output is only vaguely related to input. This Whirlpool thread has a post saying "AS/NZ3000 wiring rules requirement for any install is to install as per manufacturers instructions. if the instructions say a seperate circuit, then by not installing one he is not complying with Australian standards and therefore the Law." so is this the case in New Zealand?

 

 

 

Do the outdoors isolaters contain fuses?

 



It comes down to the electrician doing the installation. One electrician will happily install on an existing power circuit and give you a COC, the other will say no way! The first will charge you $150, the other will be $650. Guess what, cheapest price usually wins the work. The manufacturers don’t give much advice on electrical side apart from complying with AS/NZS3000.

 

 

 

The currently cited version (2007) of AS/NZS3000  do not require following of the MI's. the 2018 of AS/NZS3000 does require following of the MI's but is not yet cited by law in NZ.

 

IMO a separate circuit is not required on smaller units, if a bigger unit was been put in or a new build of a house then a separate circuit would be the way to go.


SomeoneSomewhere
274 posts

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  #2381667 27-Dec-2019 11:59
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For 2007, Part 1 requires you to follow MIs but Part 2 does not.

 

We use Part 1 only for engineered designs, and Part 2 only for other work. It's not legal to do a Part 1/Engineered design for a typical house, and even if it was, it's a PITA. They're for large facilities where there's some special reason for deviating from the rules.

 

We don't fuse the isolators here.

 

There is a rule that requires there to be an isolator adjacent to the outdoor unit that isolates the whole system including the indoor units - this is basically never complied with for very large commercial units because it's completely impractical, but all residential situations will.

 

It's also worth pointing out again that a light switch is not an isolator - they need to be lockable in the off position (though you might need an adapter, like with MCBs), and be clearly marked which position is off amongst other things.

 

There is no electrical rule that requires a dedicated circuit for units over 5kW capacity. There might be something buried in the building code or refrigeration standards but I've never seen it. It's also going to depend on how much else is on the circuit as to whether it's reasonable to put a heat pump on there too.


Lastman
286 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2381790 27-Dec-2019 15:29
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A problem that can occur with putting on an existing circuit is that there may be an RCD or arguably you should put one on as you are extending a circuit. 

 

The inverter power supply on a heat pump can cause an AC type RCD to emit high frequency noise, a ringing sound. I think the new F type RCDs will handle this but they are $2-300 a pop I believe.


SomeoneSomewhere
274 posts

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  #2381793 27-Dec-2019 15:33
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Type AC RCDs can't be used in NZ. You're thinking of Type A, which are generally OK.

 

As you're not adding additional sockets onto the socket circuit, I don't think you would be required to add an RCD, though you would need to replace the SERF if there was one.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, most of the installation manuals say to use an RCD anyway.


Lastman
286 posts

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  #2381864 27-Dec-2019 16:30
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SomeoneSomewhere:

 

Type AC RCDs can't be used in NZ. You're thinking of Type A, which are generally OK.

 

As you're not adding additional sockets onto the socket circuit, I don't think you would be required to add an RCD, though you would need to replace the SERF if there was one.

 

 

 

For what it's worth, most of the installation manuals say to use an RCD anyway.

 

 

Our one has a faint resonant ring on the RCD when a small Daikin heat pump comes on which is why I looked in to the cause of it. Electrician wouldn’t have noticed when he installed. Going to put it on a seperate circuit anyway.


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