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neb



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# 242934 20-Nov-2018 15:23
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I've been glueing up some wood that'll be exposed to moisture and used Selleys Aquadhere, which is supposed to be cross-linking PVA but isn't the usual yellow colour, which made me slightly suspicious to begin with. Yesterday some of the work had some water splashed on it (rain), and the glue quickly softened and returned to a partly liquid state, it's so bad that I think they may have sold standard PVA in Aquadhere bottles. Does anyone have any experience with this stuff in regard to water-resistance? I'm currently letting a batch dry on plastic foil next to standard PVA to see what happens when I drip water on both...

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  # 2130440 20-Nov-2018 15:30
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Because the adhesive you've used "cleans up with water" it sounds like you haven't got Selleys Aquadhere Durabond which is the moisture-cured version.

 

 

 

P.S. Aquadhere is the white PVA version; Aquadhere Durabond is the polyurethane version.


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  # 2130445 20-Nov-2018 15:36
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It has to be PVA because I'm diluting it with water (for use as wood rot hardener). The standard material for this is yellow/crosslinking PVA, but this stuff is white and seems barely better than standard PVA.

 

 

Does anyone have any experience of the Selleys stuff vs. Titebond III, which is what I'd have preferred if it was more easily available? You can get it here but it's usually mail-order or a long drive to a specialist supplier, and I thought the Selleys equivalent should be about the same.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2130489 20-Nov-2018 16:05
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I've used it to stick the tile to ply backing on a 2400x1200 outdoor mosaic 15 years ago and nothings come off.

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  # 2130492 20-Nov-2018 16:16
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Bung: I've used it to stick the tile to ply backing on a 2400x1200 outdoor mosaic 15 years ago and nothings come off.

 

 

Yeah, that's why I'm wondering whether they shipped standard PVA in the wrong container. I'll update in a couple of days when it's cured and I do the wet test.

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  # 2130505 20-Nov-2018 17:18
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I'd assumed you had the Exterior product. It's an off-white colour - definitely not yellow - more like ecru. But maybe you have got the Interior product - it would certainly explain your issues. 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2130809 21-Nov-2018 09:03
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It is not going to be very water resistant.

 

If you're gluing up timber for use in wet areas, then you need to look at other products.  Which other product depends on how water resistant you need it, what it's going to be used to bond (if not just wood to wood), the type of wood (some oily timbers are hard to get good adhesion to), whether the glue needs to be clear/invisible glue-line, whether it needs to be gap-filling or the joint can be clamped or pressed, whether it needs to have "wet tack" and bond quickly, etc etc.


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  # 2130888 21-Nov-2018 10:44
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So it sounds like I'll need to get Titebond III (which will still be a fraction of the cost of getting pre-made rot hardener)... I'll wait a few days to see how the cross-linking Aquadhere vs. generic PVA test goes.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2130897 21-Nov-2018 11:03
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Steve @ WWMM doesn't like Titebond III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb_BODVUi3g. Says it stains the timber. I've never used it myself, nor even remembered it's existence until just now, but a memory of that video drifted up out of somewhere.

 

Curious to know what you're doing. Disclaimer: I will most likely steal any ideas for the outdoor furniture I've just started making.


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  # 2130912 21-Nov-2018 11:11
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I'm not really worried about the staining since I'm painting over it... as for the application, see my earlier post, I'm using it as wood rot hardener around the edges of the rotted portions of window frame I cut out, since it's vastly cheaper when you buy it as crosslinking PVA than as rot hardener.

 

 

You're welcome to steal the idea for outdoor furniture, but if it's already got rot in it before you start then I'd suggest better materials :-).

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  # 2130932 21-Nov-2018 11:19
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neb: I'm not really worried about the staining since I'm painting over it... as for the application, see my earlier post, I'm using it as wood rot hardener around the edges of the rotted portions of window frame I cut out, since it's vastly cheaper when you buy it as crosslinking PVA than as rot hardener. You're welcome to steal the idea for outdoor furniture, but if it's already got rot in it before you start then I'd suggest better materials :-).

 

Fair call!

 

FWIW, I use Resene Timberlock to deal with this sort of thing. It does need to be painted, but sounds like you're doing that anyway.

 

It wasn't that expensive last I checked (the current can has done me a fairly long while), about the same price as the equivalent quantity of paint. Was certainly competitive with Carbatec glue prices...


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  # 2131229 21-Nov-2018 17:54
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I'm diluting it with benzalkonium chloride (BZK), a surfactant and fungicide, to create the equivalent of a commercial wood rot stabiliser, the BZK is an important component since it kills the existing rot and prevents further rotting. This is why I need a water-soluble (and definitely not moisture-curing) glue, to disperse the BZK throughout the rot, with the crosslinking PVA then stabilising it.

 

 

Looking at the Timberlock, it looks like the usual cocktail of carcinogens (naptha, xylene, toluene, ethylene glycol), a small amount of plasticiser (the stuff that remains as a solid), and tiny (< 1%) amounts of a few biocides. So it'll do the job, but at $50/L it's about five times the BZK/crosslinking PVA cost. I'm also not sure how far it'd penetrate into existing rot, with rot hardener you just flood the surface and it soaks in and stabilises, this looks more like a surface treatment.

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  # 2131303 21-Nov-2018 21:33
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If you figure this out I would be interested in your recipe!

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  # 2131546 22-Nov-2018 09:32
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Can't see it working myself.   You can get a paint/adhesive additive specifically formulated for the purpose.

 

Here's one: https://www.bunnings.co.nz/vc175-tropical-strength-mould-killer-50ml_p00500192

 

PAL used to sell one called Stop'Z Mould.

 

It will not be based on (alkyl dimethyl) benzalkonium chloride. You'd probably use that for a pre-treatment of the surface, but it won't be persistent. 

 

The active ingredients are probably isothiazolinones and/or TCMTB, widely used fungicide / preservatives.  

 

 


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  # 2220891 19-Apr-2019 01:19
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I finally got around to testing it, and it's complete rubbish, only marginally better than generic PVA. For the test, I spread a small amount of both Selleys Aquadhere and generic PVA over a white card sheet covered in plastic foil, and let it cure for several weeks. Then I put a few drops of water in the middle of both pieces of cured glue. This is the result:

 

 

See if you can guess which one is Selleys Aquadhere Exterior, "an industrial-grade polyaliphatic cross linking PVA", "suitable for all exterior woodwork", and which one is generic cheap PVA. The only difference I noticed is that the Aquadhere Exterior took maybe two to three minutes to dissolve while the generic PVA took under a minute. Unless someone can point out an error in the testing methodology, this stuff is just severely overpriced PVA and not at all suitable for outdoor use where it'll get exposed to rain/water.

 

I'll report results on Titebond III in a couple of weeks, just letting another sample cure.


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  # 2220893 19-Apr-2019 07:04
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@neb Why don’t you ring the Selleys tech help desk (assuming they have one). The answers here are possibly helpful but it’s Selleys who are the true experts or authority.




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