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64 posts

Master Geek


# 250909 31-May-2019 07:14
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Hi all. Hopefully this is an easy question!

I have a home music studio and need to run multiple devices (some fairly denanding of current) from a single double jackpoint that is on the sane circuit as some other appliances. I have having current problems and finding that some devices are being under powered. I am sure of this because when I unplug the most demanding devices, the underpowered ones perform normally.

What are my options for directing more amperage to this jackpoint/or the circuit? Can this be done from the breaker?

Happy to get a sparky to do this. What I definitely want to avoid is an expensive rewiring job.

Thanks for the help!

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8769 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2248850 31-May-2019 07:52
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you would likely need to run a complete new wire from the switch board and install a second socket.


861 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2248851 31-May-2019 07:54
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Basically you cant dictate what gets current and what does not get current on  a circuit.

 

You say 

 

I have having current problems and finding that some devices are being under powered.
I am sure of this because when I unplug the most demanding devices, the under-powered ones perform normally.

 

What are you seeing, if you are drawing too much current the fuse / MCB would Pop.

 

TBO I cant see anything in a home music studio that would draw a lot of current unless you were running a large class A amplifier.

 

Ideally get a new circuit installed by an electrician back to the baseboard and have then put as many outlets as you need on one circuit, the downside of this is when you power everything on you can often pop the MCB with the in rush current of charging capacitors.

 

Avoid using cheap power boards, they are cheap for a reason, this is why I suggest multiple outlets, HPM do a four outlet as do others. 

 

ideally everything has to be on one phase and one one circuit to prevent potential difference in cables. I presume like most home studios you are using high impedance unbalanced audio gear ( i.e. not using XLR ) this is why I am saying once circuit as this will stop any loops. 

 

John

 

 





I know enough to be dangerous


 
 
 
 


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  # 2248855 31-May-2019 08:26
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What is the heavy duty equipment you mention? It must be extraordinarily heavy duty.

 

For the voltage to drop sufficiently for items to be "underpowered" the current draw would be that high the CB or fuse would be blowing.

 

I think you have other issues.

 

Can you provide a list of what you have plugged in and the power rating of each device?





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8479 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2248871 31-May-2019 09:00
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Technofreak:

 

What is the heavy duty equipment you mention? It must be extraordinarily heavy duty.

 

For the voltage to drop sufficiently for items to be "underpowered" the current draw would be that high the CB or fuse would be blowing.

 

I think you have other issues.

 

Can you provide a list of what you have plugged in and the power rating of each device?

 

 

OP mentions that the (presumably audio) equipment is on the same circuit as other appliances. I expect that the other appliances might be the thing causing issues, especially if it was something with for example a heater element that cycled on and off, say like a dishwasher, heater with a thermostat, etc.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if that caused issues - even if the studio gear itself doesn't use much power. 

 

 




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2248872 31-May-2019 09:02
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Thanks for the replies!

 

 

 

I am suitably convinced that this is not an Amperage problem. I now believe (strongly) that it is a grounding problem.

 

 

 

Here is some further information:

 

 

 

1. The gear that is malfunctioning has an unusual capacitive keyboard (it responds to touch of external wiring on the outside of the unit). It requires a specific power supply for this reason, see here at 3.2.7 - the power supply "was designed specifically to provide the ground needed for the capacitive keyboard to operate properly." (see here for the manual: http://downloads.arturia.net/products/microfreak/manual/MicroFreak_Manual_1_1_2_EN.pdf ).

 

2. It is the capacitive keyboard (only) that is malfunctioning for me. Specifically, it malfunctions when I have another unusual device plugged into the same circuit - namely a  Trogotronic M15 Higher Power power supply for a modular synthesizer - see here - https://trogotronic.com/product/m15_diy/

 

4. When the Trogotronic is unplugged, the problem is gone. 

 

5. So there is some interaction between the Trogotronic M15, and the capacitive keyboard, than is causing the grounding problem.

 

6. Others have had grounding problems causing capacitive keyboards to malfunction: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167901

 

7. Further info - the wall socket I am using is a single double plug jackpoint. Funnily enough - if I plug either device into different jackpoints (in different locations) but on the same circuit, the problem recurs.

 

 

 

So the question is - how do I resolve this? Any suggestions are very welcome!

 

 


3885 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2248876 31-May-2019 09:05
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Technofreak:

What is the heavy duty equipment you mention? It must be extraordinarily heavy duty.


For the voltage to drop sufficiently for items to be "underpowered" the current draw would be that high the CB or fuse would be blowing.


I think you have other issues.


Can you provide a list of what you have plugged in and the power rating of each device?



This assumes that the house wiring is actually compliant with the voltage drop part of the electrical codes.

My house (built 1969) definitely doesn't. As its mains cable is 60M of 16mm2. Then it also has some really long power point circuits. Worse one is approx 20M of 1.5mm2 from switchboard to 1st power point, then another 10m to the next one on that circuit.

I try to keep the load on the mains cable less than 30A, to keep the voltage drop at semi reasonable levels. And I'm lucky that the transformer in the street is not far from my connection point as well.

Still means that whenever I want to use my welder. The hot water cylinder, heating, and all other loads that dont need to be on. have to be temporarily switched off.





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  # 2248925 31-May-2019 09:16
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That keyboard uses hardly any power, so unlikely to be an overloading issue.

Probably more likely harmonics caused by cheap switchmode power supplies getting picked up by that keyboard.

What are you using to supply power into the USB input socket on the keyboard? As cheap cellphone chargers output extremely poor quality power. Some of the clones are so bad, that what they output cant really be called DC.





 
 
 
 




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2248928 31-May-2019 09:18
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The problem is not USB related - it occurs when I am plugging the keyboard in using the provided PSU.

 

 




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2248929 31-May-2019 09:18
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Probably more likely harmonics caused by cheap switchmode power supplies getting picked up by that keyboard.

What are you using to supply power into the USB input socket on the keyboard? As cheap cellphone chargers output extremely poor quality power. Some of the clones are so bad, .




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2248944 31-May-2019 09:46
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"Probably more likely harmonics caused by cheap switchmode power supplies getting picked up by that keyboard."

 

 

 

This sounds promising, but how do I isolate the keyboard from this?


1019 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2249037 31-May-2019 11:33
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I have no experience with the keyboard you mention but I have had capacitive touch screens go banana's from nearby interference.  

 

For a range of reasons, the technically preferable solution is to replace the source of noise with a better quality unit. IE replace the noisy power supply with a better designed one.

 

The next best solution is to filter the power to the source of noise as close as possible to the source of the noise - not at the wall end of a extension lead. Finding filters is the problem, most retail filters are rubbish/fake, so you need to go for something a bit more industrial. I ended up building my own because it was so difficult to find proper stuff. In a lot of cases, it can work out cheaper to replace the power supply than to filter it. Also, depending on the exact nature of he problem, filtering is not guaranteed to be the solution because RF noise can be transmitted through the air from cable to cable and simply bypass the filter.

 

I know you said you're not dealing with USB specifically but I had USB cables receiving interference from a noise source and conducting it to a USB radio receiver. Clipping a bunch of these on the USB cable significantly reduced the noise problem. The same principle may work for your keyboard cable - loop in through the ferrite as many times as you can, but don't reverse the direction of the cable like this. You can often salvage similar ferrite filters from dead PC power supplies.

 

My suspicion is that if it is a noisy power supply, then it is either faulty/failing/old or not the original unit. Most pro audio gear has pretty decent power supplies to avoid unwanted audio noise. Cheap appliances often come with super cheap, super noisy power supplies. When you open them you can often see where the power supply was designed with filtering but the components where not fitted to save money.




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2249058 31-May-2019 12:08
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tripper1000:

 

I have no experience with the keyboard you mention but I have had capacitive touch screens go banana's from nearby interference.  

 

For a range of reasons, the technically preferable solution is to replace the source of noise with a better quality unit. IE replace the noisy power supply with a better designed one.

 

The next best solution is to filter the power to the source of noise as close as possible to the source of the noise - not at the wall end of a extension lead. Finding filters is the problem, most retail filters are rubbish/fake, so you need to go for something a bit more industrial. I ended up building my own because it was so difficult to find proper stuff. In a lot of cases, it can work out cheaper to replace the power supply than to filter it. Also, depending on the exact nature of he problem, filtering is not guaranteed to be the solution because RF noise can be transmitted through the air from cable to cable and simply bypass the filter.

 

I know you said you're not dealing with USB specifically but I had USB cables receiving interference from a noise source and conducting it to a USB radio receiver. Clipping a bunch of these on the USB cable significantly reduced the noise problem. The same principle may work for your keyboard cable - loop in through the ferrite as many times as you can, but don't reverse the direction of the cable like this. You can often salvage similar ferrite filters from dead PC power supplies.

 

My suspicion is that if it is a noisy power supply, then it is either faulty/failing/old or not the original unit. Most pro audio gear has pretty decent power supplies to avoid unwanted audio noise. Cheap appliances often come with super cheap, super noisy power supplies. When you open them you can often see where the power supply was designed with filtering but the components where not fitted to save money.

 

 

 

 

Great reply, I am leaning this way myself. Thing is the Eurorack power supply (Trogotronic) is quite well regarded - I don't think the builder would have cut corners. 

 

I'll try a couple of ferrite RF filters :)

 

 


2118 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249074 31-May-2019 13:03
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I don't know how applicable this might be to your situation, but I tend to use mind control and a lot of tinfoil to help direct auras, currents, spirits and healing energy at my house. 

 

Since I started doing this we've had a lot more positive vibes in the loungeroom, plus in the kitchen, as reflected in the amazing flavour of my delicious organic, low-fat, free-range, biodegradable, gluten and MSG free magical mushrooms I've been cooking and serving up.  Both Michael Jackson and Prince stopped by yesterday to tell me how tasty the mushrooms are, so it's definitely working. Prior to this, no one was visiting and the walls would melt for no reason, so I've certainly seen a lot of improvement since putting the energy-direction foil up.

 

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

- muppet

 

 




64 posts

Master Geek


  # 2249081 31-May-2019 13:21
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muppet:

 

I don't know how applicable this might be to your situation, but I tend to use mind control and a lot of tinfoil to help direct auras, currents, spirits and healing energy at my house. 

 

Since I started doing this we've had a lot more positive vibes in the loungeroom, plus in the kitchen, as reflected in the amazing flavour of my delicious organic, low-fat, free-range, biodegradable, gluten and MSG free magical mushrooms I've been cooking and serving up.  Both Michael Jackson and Prince stopped by yesterday to tell me how tasty the mushrooms are, so it's definitely working. Prior to this, no one was visiting and the walls would melt for no reason, so I've certainly seen a lot of improvement since putting the energy-direction foil up.

 

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

- muppet

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, that's helpful. Tonight I'll try smearing a mushroom omelette all over my synthesizers, being sure to push omelette up into the audio jacks of the gear. I'll report back on the results.


neb

1114 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249207 31-May-2019 16:38
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SATTV:

Avoid using cheap power boards, they are cheap for a reason, this is why I suggest multiple outlets, HPM do a four outlet as do others. 

 

 

The one annoying thing about those is that they're designed for horizontal-mount flush boxes, so if you've got a slightly older house with vertically mounted flush boxes you have to mount the four-way outlet sideways to get it to fit.

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