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Handle9
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  #3154632 1-Nov-2023 19:38
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mattwnz: It is usually your biggest asset, but that doesn't mean it should be treated as investment. Isnt that one reason it isn't subject to capital gains tax in countries like Australia. If it was an investment, then shouldn't the owner be paying tax if sold for a profit, as the intention to buy was to make a profit.


There is no capital gains tax on the family home in Australia.

Even though there is a capital gains tax on investment properties it’s not doing much to control prices there for the same reason it wouldn’t in Nz - there is a shortage of housing.

 
 
 

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tdgeek
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  #3154633 1-Nov-2023 19:44
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tweake:

 

having a saving scheme for buying houses is a good thing. however taking from the retirement fund costs you a huge amount in the long run. retirements funds are about having it for a long time. emptying it out half way through means you have no time to build it back up.

 

a retirement fund should be just that and only for that. however i suspect they could quite easily run a separate fhbers house fund along side it thats is only used for a first home. the reason for having the two is any savings scheme that's not locked away for a set purpose becomes a target by the RE industry. which is why i put high probability they will open up kiwi saver so it can be exploited by housing. 

 

 

Kiwisaver is NOT a savings scheme for buying houses. Its a retirement scheme, that CAN assist with FHB. FHB then buy, they get their dream, their security, the social and stable benefits as they are insulated from house price increases and have their nest to live in. 

 

If there was Kiwisaver and also FHB Saver, I feel that most starting out in life cannot afford dumping 8% x 2


tdgeek
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  #3154635 1-Nov-2023 19:49
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logo:

 

tdgeek:

 

Im fortunate to live in an upmarket house in an upmarket area in the Garden City. Yay on me. Its gone up 600k since 2017, sweet. Where is my 600k profit? We still have the same two cars, the same motorbike and the same lawnmower. Where is my profit???

 

 

 

 

You will be able to leverage against that "profit".

 

Want to borrow money to buy another rental property - leverage off the increased value of your home

 

Want to borrow money to buy a business? Good luck trying to get an unsecured business loan. Using the equity in your home you increase your chances (the bank now has collateral) and get lending at a lower interest rate

 

Want to put solar panels on your house or buy a new EV? Get a 0 or 1% home loan from the bank

 

 

 

 

Whats wrong with that?

 

Leverage, yes I am well aware of that. Buy a rental, nothing wrong with that, as thats a service to those that cannot afford to buy, or who want mobility so dont want to buy. I dont see the issue




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  #3154636 1-Nov-2023 19:53
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tweake:

 

we have been told for a very long time to "invest in your home", "your home is your biggest investment", now your trying to say its not an investment ?????

 

wither its a net profit to you depends on many things. this is just gross profit, difference between buy and sell. after all that is what effects the cost to the next guy.

 

as far as any tax goes imho the best is to tax the profit, the difference between buy and sell price. then use that tax money to build more houses.

 

 

You have never owned a business. Profit is profit. Sometimes its an unrealised profit such as capital gain on assets used in the business.  Ask an oldie that bought for 3000 pounds now its worth $950,000. Will you tax them on a profit of $940,000? Its the same house, apart from wallpaper, carpet and the heat pump.


tdgeek
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  #3154637 1-Nov-2023 19:58
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tweake:

 

we have been told for a very long time to "invest in your home", "your home is your biggest investment", now your trying to say its not an investment ?????

 

 

You are conflating "investment" In business terms an investment is an investment to make in income. Invest in your home means to buy a home, for you and your family security. I thought that was quite obvious. For a citizen, a house and a car are there usual two largest "investments". Not money making investments.


tdgeek
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  #3154638 1-Nov-2023 20:03
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Handle9: 

There is no capital gains tax on the family home in Australia.

Even though there is a capital gains tax on investment properties it’s not doing much to control prices there for the same reason it wouldn’t in Nz - there is a shortage of housing.

 

Read an article today re Canada.They have a lot of immigration. As we do. A house affordability crisis, as we do. Inflation as we do. Talking about managing health and infrastructure, as we do. IMO its the same deal, we all wanty this stuff fixed, but we also want low taxes. Cannot really have it both ways. For those of us that run or have run businesses, or that run a home, its ensuring that revenue exceeds costs. Same for countries. But the revenue in countries is generally taxation, which will lose votes. 


tweake
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  #3154739 1-Nov-2023 21:07
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tdgeek:

 

tweake:

 

having a saving scheme for buying houses is a good thing. however taking from the retirement fund costs you a huge amount in the long run. retirements funds are about having it for a long time. emptying it out half way through means you have no time to build it back up.

 

a retirement fund should be just that and only for that. however i suspect they could quite easily run a separate fhbers house fund along side it thats is only used for a first home. the reason for having the two is any savings scheme that's not locked away for a set purpose becomes a target by the RE industry. which is why i put high probability they will open up kiwi saver so it can be exploited by housing. 

 

 

Kiwisaver is NOT a savings scheme for buying houses. Its a retirement scheme, that CAN assist with FHB. FHB then buy, they get their dream, their security, the social and stable benefits as they are insulated from house price increases and have their nest to live in. 

 

If there was Kiwisaver and also FHB Saver, I feel that most starting out in life cannot afford dumping 8% x 2

 

 

kiwisaver is meant to be a retirement scheme but now its a home deposit scheme at the expensive of retirement. plus its govt supporting the RE industry, that govt hand out goes to the RE.

 

if you did two schemes, i would suggest for eg the kiwisaver gets 2% and 6% for the fhb saver, or whatever amount you want to put in it. lower the kiwisaver but keep it going.

 

the simple problem is the average fhber is old. starting a retirement fund (because it all just went on the house) when your middle aged gives you very little for retirement, especially when you have a mortgage to pay. standard mortgage now is 30 years. odds are, your going to be 60-70 years old before you even start saving for retirement. starting early is what matters most and removing that half way through kills it.

 

 




tweake
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  #3154745 1-Nov-2023 21:23
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tdgeek:

 

Correct as bolded

 

Most people in NZ own one house, so they cannot sell to realise the "profit" 

 

LADDER

 

Buy a 50k 3bedder way back
Sell the 3 bedder for 150k and buy the same equivalent house elsewhere , 150k  No profit.
And so on

 

Now when they sell at retirement and downgrade to a 2 bedder, then get cash. Nothing wrong with that. Its a personal Kiwisaver. Sell the V8 to get a 1300cc 3 door, get the cash (yes I know car analogies suck!)

 

 

 

 

in the real world no, with a big LOL.

 

almost everyone at least tries to to climb the ladder, not sit on one rung.

 

buy the 50k 3 bedder, sell for 150k (100k profit), buy 150k somewhere sell for 300k (250k profit), buy 300k somewhere sell for 600k (550k profit). buy a cheap house in the sticks for 200k and have 400k in the bank. all without doing any work.

 

the problem of course is that its really your kids/grandkids who are forced to handover that extra 550k. so what was done on one income and 20 year mortgage, now they need two incomes and 30 year mortgage and kiss good bye to any retirement.


Handle9
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  #3154746 1-Nov-2023 21:26
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tdgeek:

Handle9: 

There is no capital gains tax on the family home in Australia.

Even though there is a capital gains tax on investment properties it’s not doing much to control prices there for the same reason it wouldn’t in Nz - there is a shortage of housing.


Read an article today re Canada.They have a lot of immigration. As we do. A house affordability crisis, as we do. Inflation as we do. Talking about managing health and infrastructure, as we do. IMO its the same deal, we all wanty this stuff fixed, but we also want low taxes. Cannot really have it both ways. For those of us that run or have run businesses, or that run a home, its ensuring that revenue exceeds costs. Same for countries. But the revenue in countries is generally taxation, which will lose votes. 



Most of the developed world has a housing affordability problem but New Zealand’s is one of the worst.


Handle9
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  #3154747 1-Nov-2023 21:28
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tweake:

 


tdgeek:


Correct as bolded


Most people in NZ own one house, so they cannot sell to realise the "profit" 


LADDER


Buy a 50k 3bedder way back
Sell the 3 bedder for 150k and buy the same equivalent house elsewhere , 150k  No profit.
And so on


Now when they sell at retirement and downgrade to a 2 bedder, then get cash. Nothing wrong with that. Its a personal Kiwisaver. Sell the V8 to get a 1300cc 3 door, get the cash (yes I know car analogies suck!)


 



in the real world no, with a big LOL.


almost everyone at least tries to to climb the ladder, not sit on one rung.


buy the 50k 3 bedder, sell for 150k (100k profit), buy 150k somewhere sell for 300k (250k profit), buy 300k somewhere sell for 600k (550k profit). buy a cheap house in the sticks for 200k and have 400k in the bank. all without doing any work.


the problem of course is that its really your kids/grandkids who are forced to handover that extra 550k. so what was done on one income and 20 year mortgage, now they need two incomes and 30 year mortgage and kiss good bye to any retirement.



Most people don’t buy a more expensive house for “profit.” They buy a more expensive house because they have kids and need more space or they want to live in a nicer area.

tweake
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  #3154748 1-Nov-2023 21:30
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tdgeek:

 

tweake:

 

we have been told for a very long time to "invest in your home", "your home is your biggest investment", now your trying to say its not an investment ?????

 

 

You are conflating "investment" In business terms an investment is an investment to make in income. Invest in your home means to buy a home, for you and your family security. I thought that was quite obvious. For a citizen, a house and a car are there usual two largest "investments". Not money making investments.

 

 

o hell no.

 

it has ALWAYS meant to make money. i have never ever heard it any other way way. you invest in your home to make money out of it. i even got criticized for buying my house because "i would not make money from it".

 

and cars are always a liability, a cost. no one ever invests in a car (normal day to day car).


tweake
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  #3154749 1-Nov-2023 21:32
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tdgeek:

 

tweake:

 

we have been told for a very long time to "invest in your home", "your home is your biggest investment", now your trying to say its not an investment ?????

 

wither its a net profit to you depends on many things. this is just gross profit, difference between buy and sell. after all that is what effects the cost to the next guy.

 

as far as any tax goes imho the best is to tax the profit, the difference between buy and sell price. then use that tax money to build more houses.

 

 

You have never owned a business. Profit is profit. Sometimes its an unrealised profit such as capital gain on assets used in the business.  Ask an oldie that bought for 3000 pounds now its worth $950,000. Will you tax them on a profit of $940,000? Its the same house, apart from wallpaper, carpet and the heat pump.

 

 

absolutely i would tax them. tho personally i would much rather tax the profit based on length of home ownership. you owned that house for 30 years, no tax. you owned it for one year, 100% tax.


tweake
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  #3154750 1-Nov-2023 21:35
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Handle9: 

Most people don’t buy a more expensive house for “profit.” They buy a more expensive house because they have kids and need more space or they want to live in a nicer area.

 

your hilarious, comedy central.

 

they almost all buy/sell to make money. i used to work on those homes. 


Handle9
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  #3154752 1-Nov-2023 21:38
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tweake:

Handle9: 

Most people don’t buy a more expensive house for “profit.” They buy a more expensive house because they have kids and need more space or they want to live in a nicer area.


your hilarious, comedy central.


they almost all buy/sell to make money. i used to work on those homes. 



Cool story bro. You worked on some flipped houses so everyone moves to make “profit.”

Jesus wept.

johno1234
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  #3154756 1-Nov-2023 22:17
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People who buy a house to live in buy it to live in. It is not to make money.

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