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3219 posts

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  #2484616 15-May-2020 18:44
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Did do it at the bottom though?



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  #2484657 15-May-2020 20:21
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Paul1977: Did do it at the bottom though?

 

I meant DIDN'T do it at the bottom?


 
 
 
 


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  #2484707 15-May-2020 22:51
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I don't recall what the end result was to be honest. I went around the whole place tidying it up, so that may have got tucked in. Some things I didn't finish off until I had photos of all the services. There is a condensate drain below that photo which wasn't cut into the batts till all photos were done. As I needed to document where it went for example. I went a little overboard and put batts in many internal walls, between media room and rest of house, between bathrooms and bedrooms, between laundry and bedrooms. Double gib between laundry and bedrooms, double gib between bathrooms and bedrooms etc. Fully insulated the whole garage as was sick of a 40 degree garage in previous house. 

 

Basically i'd cut the batts so that they are uncompressed and giving full benefit. So the depth of the services will vary, but I will have tried to have the batts flush with the frame at the end.

 

 




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  #2484741 16-May-2020 09:25
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Thanks @froglotion I swung by last night ant the batts have been either pushed in front of the electrical or shoved in behind. No effort made to even slit the batts at the edges where they go through a dean for stud.

@elpenguino I’m still confused around this de-rating business with the electrical wires though, not sure if I should be doing anything with those batts or not. I texted the sparky and he was a little vague. Seemed to indicate it wouldn’t be an issue but didn’t go into any specifics.

Thanks

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  #2484802 16-May-2020 11:28
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It's standard procedure for wooden framed houses. Cables have a theoretical maximum current capacity but are derated for length, insulation and safety margin.
Sparkles will be well used to this.



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  #2484823 16-May-2020 13:19
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elpenguino: It's standard procedure for wooden framed houses. Cables have a theoretical maximum current capacity but are derated for length, insulation and safety margin.
Sparkles will be well used to this.


Thanks @elpenguino, but what is a standard procedure, de-rating the circuits?

In some places a read having them enclosed in insulation is a no go, but many here have said it’s fine.

The insulation installers did it the easy way which is to just tuck the batts behind, but that leave the batts compressed at the demands and studs.

Before I change anything myself I want to be 100% sure I’m not not anything non-compliant.

@mdooher had said it was not something you should do in a previous thread.

Can’t get hold of sparky over weekend so I’m not sure what I should be doing.

This is how the installers have done it:



But I’m not sure if I should change it like this that I experimented with this morning, by slicing batts top and bottom:


696 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2484883 16-May-2020 14:42
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From the Pink Batts installation guide.

"Ensure there are no gaps, folds or compression of the product to achieve optimal performance.
Fit Pink Batts insulation tight and close around electrical cables and pipes.
It’s important to minimise compression, gaps and folds in the insulation.
For electrical cables and small diameter pipes, partially cut insulation and place around the cables and pipes."


 
 
 
 


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  #2484891 16-May-2020 14:51
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Cables should not be run on the surface of the batt.
This is to prevent them becoming damaged when picture hooks etc. are put in.

There's calculations to help reckon the maximum current capacity Vs temperature of cables when insulated but most sparkles would go straight to a derating table in the regulations handbook

Let me see if I can find a reference.



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  #2484892 16-May-2020 14:54
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So better to just do a shallow slice along the whole length and tuck all the electrical cable in, rather that just at the dwangs and studs?

Hmm, what to write...
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  #2484961 16-May-2020 17:11
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Paul1977: So better to just do a shallow slice along the whole length and tuck all the electrical cable in, rather that just at the dwangs and studs?

 

No, What you have done is fine. The cable should run along the surface of the Bat exactly like that, the rule about being too close to the surface is only when the cable is constrained. if you hang a picture and the screw/nail hits the wire the wire will move out of the way unless you constrain it.

 

Putting the wire through the edge of the batt is overkill as far as insulation is concerned because the pocket of air you have created is so small convection currents will not transfer the heat anyway, but fine if you want to do it. The rules around thermal insulation only apply of the wire is within it for more than 300mm  (the heat can escape along its length if short)

 

 

 

you are basically fighting two competing NZ standards. 3604 and 3000. Every electrician I know does it the way you did it in the first picture. If you really want to get picky the placement of the holes through the 3 studs at the edge of the window is not actually allowed.. but everyone does it





Matthew




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  #2485007 16-May-2020 17:48
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mdooher:

 

Paul1977: So better to just do a shallow slice along the whole length and tuck all the electrical cable in, rather that just at the dwangs and studs?

 

No, What you have done is fine. The cable should run along the surface of the Bat exactly like that, the rule about being too close to the surface is only when the cable is constrained. if you hang a picture and the screw/nail hits the wire the wire will move out of the way unless you constrain it.

 

Putting the wire through the edge of the batt is overkill as far as insulation is concerned because the pocket of air you have created is so small convection currents will not transfer the heat anyway, but fine if you want to do it. The rules around thermal insulation only apply of the wire is within it for more than 300mm  (the heat can escape along its length if short)

 

 

 

you are basically fighting two competing NZ standards. 3604 and 3000. Every electrician I know does it the way you did it in the first picture. If you really want to get picky the placement of the holes through the 3 studs at the edge of the window is not actually allowed.. but everyone does it

 

 

Thanks @mdooher so the first picture where there are no cuts in the batts (even at the ends) so they get a bit compressed near the dwangs and studs is pretty much standard practice? So going around and doing them like the second picture would be a bit of a waste of time in your opinion?

 

EDIT: I know every electrician does it this way, but does every batt installer do it this way? I.e. Just tucking the batts behind the wire and not bothering with any cuts at all to reduce compression of the batt at the dwangs and studs??


Hmm, what to write...
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  #2485008 16-May-2020 17:50
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Yep





Matthew




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  #2485010 16-May-2020 17:52
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mdooher:

 

Yep

 

 

Sorry @mdoorher, added an edit to my previous post. Are you able to comment on that?


Hmm, what to write...
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  #2485012 16-May-2020 18:00
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Paul1977:

 

mdooher:

 

Yep

 

 

Sorry @mdoorher, added an edit to my previous post. Are you able to comment on that?

 

 

Ha ha... a batt installer will do the barest minimum to get past inspection. Understandable I suppose, they don't get paid a fortune and a pass is a pass  as they say





Matthew


70 posts

Master Geek


  #2485014 16-May-2020 18:15
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I'd be surprised if an electrician was sizing the the cables to not have allowance for them to be fully insulated in a new build. What you have done with those small slits looks good to me. I'd only be concerned if there were large areas of batt compressed. I think the real world difference in insulation value from a small compressed area would be minimal. But if you want it as good as it can be, then do that for all the services and job done.


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