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MadEngineer
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  #2972120 23-Sep-2022 12:50
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So, readers digest version, get floor mounted outlets?




You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

 
 
 

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timmmay

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  #2972122 23-Sep-2022 12:55
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MadEngineer: So, readers digest version, get floor mounted outlets?

 

Of which part? The whole post or the question about return vent noise?

 

Summary of the whole post is if you want a readers digest version don't get a ducted heat pump, get highwalls as ducted is complex.

 

Summary of noise is slower air through larger diffusers is quieter than fast air through smaller diffusers.


billgates
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  #2975978 1-Oct-2022 15:49
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Is it possible to convert an existing ducted aircon setup with no zoning and add zoning to it later stage?





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timmmay

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  #2975982 1-Oct-2022 16:09
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billgates:

 

Is it possible to convert an existing ducted aircon setup with no zoning and add zoning to it later stage?

 

 

Yes it is, I was considering doing that with my first Panasonic ducted heat pump, but it sucked so bad (loud etc) I had it removed and replaced with the Daikin system which had it to start with. Call any reputable firm that installs the Airtouch or other system. I think Smooth Air are the Airtouch distributer in NZ. Note that Airtouch5 has been announced.

 

The Airtouch parts don't seem like they'd be difficult to retrofit:

 

  • Airtouch console / tablet
  • Hardware interface between the Airtouch and the ducted heat pump
  • Electric dampers
  • Wireless temperature sensors

Then there's a configuration step.


blackjack17
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  #2975989 1-Oct-2022 16:44
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timmmay:

 

MadEngineer: So, readers digest version, get floor mounted outlets?

 

Of which part? The whole post or the question about return vent noise?

 

Summary of the whole post is if you want a readers digest version don't get a ducted heat pump, get highwalls as ducted is complex.

 

Summary of noise is slower air through larger diffusers is quieter than fast air through smaller diffusers.

 

 

We have floor mounted and don't seem to have any of this issues that others with ceiling mounted ones have.  No noise, no stratification.

 

Ducted does seem like floor mounted would be better due to warm air rising.





timmmay

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  #2976237 2-Oct-2022 13:30
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Floor mounted is a good option, if you have the space. They're larger, but sometimes less obtrusive. Yes, ducted ideally pushes air in the floor and the return vent is in the ceiling, or vice versa for cooling, but that's only usually practical if you build it into a new home.


billgates
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  #2977600 5-Oct-2022 09:32
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We got a price for Zone control for ducted heatupmp that we already have. The quote incl price for Air Touch 4 but the company has confirmed in quote and also in email that they will supply and install Airtouch 5 when it releases in November as they cannot do the job before December anyway with the workload they have. Is this a fair price for Zone control? The temp sensors will be wireless.

 





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timmmay

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  #2977615 5-Oct-2022 10:11
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Airtouch prices are available online here with the NZ supplier. My quick estimate without paying too much attention is parts will cost $4700 ex GST according to that price list, so $5000 including labor seems good. I expect they get trade prices so they actually do make a profit. You might also check Australia pricing which tends to be more competitive if you're interested. I will check my invoice tonight to see if it's itemised.

 

Gut feel, I think I paid a bit less when I had it installed with a heat pump, with four zones, but as a standalone job that's not so bad.


billgates
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  #2977623 5-Oct-2022 10:25
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Awesome. Thanks @timmmay. I will proceed ahead with them. I only got 1 quote as they came originally to scope and quote for a Solar PV install and we started chatting about our ducted aircon where bedrooms don't get cold enough while open living, media room, office etc get cold nicely in summer. Owner/installer is a nice guy and took time to even go on roof and check out the setup and advise original installer did not use wide enough ducting but said zone control will fix the issues anyway. I am hoping his Solar PV quote also comes out competitive as he has been the only installer so far out of 3 I have had for scope and quote to offer the solution I want for PV. 





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timmmay

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  #2977628 5-Oct-2022 10:39
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I suspect you could find a cheaper installer, though cheaper isn't always better value. Experience is important with ducted heat pumps and control systems.


timmmay

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  #2979212 8-Oct-2022 20:07
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@billgates Parts for the Airtouch quoted from Smooth Air back in 2021 was $2511 for four zones, not including installation. I don't know what installation would cost, but the tasks would include:

 

  • Adding an electric damper to the ducting for each outlet including wiring - this could be easy in some houses, very difficult in others
  • Fitting the Airtouch controller tablet and running cable to it
  • Putting in the ducted heat pump gateway unit including power supply
  • Installing the wireless sensors
  • Configuration of everything

 

Incidentally, my Airtouch controller tablet seems to be failing. The WiFi is just about stuffed. I called their support, they emailed me back and I think they're going to replace it, but that was a week ago and I haven't heard anything. Their service is... variable.


billgates
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  #2979217 8-Oct-2022 20:20
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Thanks @timmmay

We have a Mitsubishi 5 zone ducted system. I did the math as per prices on Smooth Air website and parts come to $4100 incl GST. I guess rest is labour + travel. The damper are very easily accessible for all 5 zones as they are under the same section of the house attic above. I imagine testing/balancing system might take an hour or two. There may likely be $400 to $500 fat in the quote but getting a trade in to come do a quote is hard as it is. I hope their solar PV quote comes out competitive. I did accept the ducted zone quote and asked for work to only be completed in Jan 2023 as Air Touch 5 controller is not available until late November.




Do whatever you want to do man.

  

billgates
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  #2997358 17-Nov-2022 10:38
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An update on the zone control install for our Mitsubishi ducted aircon. I have cancelled the Airtouch 5 install and saved $5800. 

 

We have always had a bug in the ducted unit since it's installation 2 years ago where let's say when we set the temperature on the wall controller or the smartphone app to 17 degrees heating in winter, it would never get anywhere near close to 17 degrees displayed as ambient temperature on the wall controller or smartphone app even after hours of the unit running. As soon as we updated the set temperature by even 1 degree on the wall controller or smartphone app, the ambient temperature reading number would update usually to a higher number within few seconds.

 

We found that in winters, the bedrooms got too hot where I could tell that it's feels much more than 17 degrees heat. I was the one having to get up early morning and switching to fan mode on the ducted unit with heat exchanger in the lossnay unit still running to reduce the heat in bedrooms as other wife and kids would get grumpy and get out of there blanket and then 2 or 3 hours later, bedroom would get cold again specially when its 1 degree outside and they end up with a cold in mornings. We found in summer; the bedrooms did not cool down enough. We had the installers in few times who did re-balance the system etc but it still did not feel right which is why after getting sick of the installers, we decided for the Airtouch 5 zone control unit thinking the excess cool air being pumped into big open living, media room, office and hallway can be pumped into the bedrooms at night to cool down the rooms.

 

I decided to contact Black Diamond Technologies who are the distributor for Mitsubishi HVAC, Lossnay and hot water products in NZ and asked for a firmware update if there is one available for the ducted unit or wall controller to fix the ambient temperature display not updating bug. One of their awesome support engineers Gavin got back to me on my mobile after a day and explained that there should be no ambient temperature updating bug in our unit as they have never seen it before. Gavin spent about 1.5 hours with me on the phone and provided service area passwords etc into the wall controller to tell him what the parameter settings are. 

 

He confirmed that the HVAC unit should be routing the ventilation system through its controller and not through the dedicated Lossnay wall controller we also have. He also confirmed that the installers had for some dumb reason set the wall controller for HVAC to use the temperature sensor which is on the ducted unit itself above the attic rather than the sensor on the wall controller itself which is in the open living room under a well-insulated environment. This was the reason why temperature was not really updating because attic was either very hot or very cold and the outside compressor unit was very loud because it was struggling to maintain the set temperature, we had told it to set. 

 

Essentially our temperature was out by 4 to 5 degrees from what we had set it to what it was actually setting it to. The other issue he found was that that static pressure values on the ducted unit was still the default 50 when it's shipped from factory. The installers should have changed the static pressure value to suit the size of our home which needed to be 150 which we set it to over the phone after Gavin provided all the parameter settings. Our bedrooms are cool now like we have always wanted it to, and the 17 degrees heat set at night for odd past few nights we have had with chill, do not overheat the bedrooms at all now and feel pleasent and I can sleep through the night not having to get up early morning to switch from heat to fan mode. Our daily power usage has gone down by 20kWh and I am in my wife's good books for raising a case with BDT for a issue we thought was a bug that ended up fixing all of our problems with the ducted unit. Gavin was awesome at BDT. Hence why we don't need the zone control system anymore. Angry too because you pay professionals to do a job and pay good $ for and they do a mediocre job without putting any effort. BDT will be contacting my installers for training development as they are authorized Mitsubishi installers.





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jonathan18
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  #2997368 17-Nov-2022 11:31
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I hear you. I had a similar experience with the incompetence of the installers that put in our ducted system - the system itself has no temperature sensor in the wall control unit (as it's simply an Android tablet screwed to the wall!) so they installed it solely using the return duct sensor. As a result, we had the same problems that you did - wildly fluctuating temperatures (ranging 5-7 degrees), where the rooms would get far too hot then left ages to cool back down. It was only when I pointed out that trying to measure the house's temperature 3m off the ground in the hallway wasn't going to work that they installed a wall sensor. And then I had to get them back to add a second sensor in zone two, as the way they had it set up meant if it was only heating zone two it wasn't able to get a usable reading of the temperature in that zone!

 

HVAC is clearly a highly specialised skillset, and based on my experience some companies should stick to back-to-back installs and not much more! Even the company that we paid many thousands of dollars more to fix other faults in the initial install (eg, wrong vent types) still haven't managed to really get it right, and they're a well-regarded firm.

 

 


billgates
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  #2997441 17-Nov-2022 13:11
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We are lucky that our Mitsubishi PAR40 model wall controllers have an inbuilt temperature sensor at bottom left. Open living wall controller is master and master bedroom wall controller works as slave. What I am doing now as a cheap man zone control to save some power $ which tbh is not a lot of consumption anyway is to switch the master bedroom controller to master and open living to slave. This ensures that master bedroom cools quickly being a much smaller area than open living and thus using less power to come to desired temperature on the controller. In the morning I switch them other way around again as we are mostly in open living area or there abouts. I am going to stop doing this as I have been monitoring power savings via the Genesis hourly usage history and savings are not significant enough yet for me to spend 2 minutes each night doing the master/slave change. Maybe once the peak summer starts and nights become really muggy, I will resume doing the master/slave switch again. 





Do whatever you want to do man.

  

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