Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

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19378 posts

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#2944386 20-Jul-2022 17:16

Not sure builders are the best advisors on that. Sound is a major benefit. But also it you have a cold room or cupboards next to the room you are heating, then you get heat loss, unless you are heating both rooms. We didn't put insulation in he internal walls and I do regret it because you can easily hear sound from rooms on the other side of the house, compared to a house I lived in that had full insulation, and it doesn't retain heat as well if you are just heating one room, or parts of the house. But if it is a spec home you are unlikely to find interior walls insulated because it is an additional cost.

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lxsw20

3192 posts

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#2944390 20-Jul-2022 17:32

There is way more to sound proofing than just filling the walls with fluff. Building harmonics is a pretty difficult thing to resolve.

timbosan

2027 posts

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#2944411 20-Jul-2022 18:33

Wow, lots of replies, and a lot more detailed than I thought. I knew about ground sheets but had been told by an insulation company "the ground is not wet so you don't need it" which seemed odd. It seems like that is the FIRST thing to get done.

Also, there is more to answering my question that just buying an appliance (heat-pump, dehumidifier, air purifier). I have worked hard to keep water out of the building envelope (new roof which also meant I could insulate the front and back which have skillion roofs and hence the previous owners didn't do), I have added missing downpipes to move water to the drains rather than dump into the ground, re-grade parts of the section to keep water away from the house, fix concrete and cement board, etc.

After the ground barrier I will be reviewing the underfloor insulation as it doesn't cover the whole area.

Since we have wooden floors and there ARE gaps between boards, maybe next would be filling and at the same time sanding / polishing, as per @tweake's comments. Then the bottom of the house will be warm / dry.

I am still not sure on a ventilation system, also only the main part of the house (living area) has attic space so all I can install up there is something like this Single Room Fresh Air Ventilation and Energy Recovery // Mitsubishi Electric (mitsubishi-electric.co.nz)

in the recent rewrire we had a bathroom fan added and the kitchen fan vented outside (last people had it venting into the space above the false ceiling in the kitchen, sigh....)

tweake

1042 posts

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#2944428 20-Jul-2022 19:30

timbosan:

Wow, lots of replies, and a lot more detailed than I thought. I knew about ground sheets but had been told by an insulation company "the ground is not wet so you don't need it" which seemed odd. It seems like that is the FIRST thing to get done.

Also, there is more to answering my question that just buying an appliance (heat-pump, dehumidifier, air purifier). I have worked hard to keep water out of the building envelope (new roof which also meant I could insulate the front and back which have skillion roofs and hence the previous owners didn't do), I have added missing downpipes to move water to the drains rather than dump into the ground, re-grade parts of the section to keep water away from the house, fix concrete and cement board, etc.

After the ground barrier I will be reviewing the underfloor insulation as it doesn't cover the whole area.

Since we have wooden floors and there ARE gaps between boards, maybe next would be filling and at the same time sanding / polishing, as per @tweake's comments. Then the bottom of the house will be warm / dry.

I am still not sure on a ventilation system, also only the main part of the house (living area) has attic space so all I can install up there is something like this Single Room Fresh Air Ventilation and Energy Recovery // Mitsubishi Electric (mitsubishi-electric.co.nz)

in the recent rewrire we had a bathroom fan added and the kitchen fan vented outside (last people had it venting into the space above the false ceiling in the kitchen, sigh....)

excellent job on the water management. thats always no1 priority.

and yes there is idiots who still cling to the "if the ground is dry you don't need it". i'll admit i fell for that many many many years ago. if its wet, fix the drainage. if its dry its because what water there is has evaporated and we do not want that moisture going up into the home. sadly i've heard of them ripping out the poly when doing insulation installs, so much for "professionals". insulation needs to be continuous. you loose quite a bit of insulation value if you miss a small area.

what to use filling the floor gaps i have no idea, not really my thing.

ventilation, you do not want to use energy recovery ventilation. even heat recovery is probably a bit pointless. there is other options.

timbosan

2027 posts

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#2944431 20-Jul-2022 19:55

tweake:

timbosan:

Wow, lots of replies, and a lot more detailed than I thought. I knew about ground sheets but had been told by an insulation company "the ground is not wet so you don't need it" which seemed odd. It seems like that is the FIRST thing to get done.

Also, there is more to answering my question that just buying an appliance (heat-pump, dehumidifier, air purifier). I have worked hard to keep water out of the building envelope (new roof which also meant I could insulate the front and back which have skillion roofs and hence the previous owners didn't do), I have added missing downpipes to move water to the drains rather than dump into the ground, re-grade parts of the section to keep water away from the house, fix concrete and cement board, etc.

excellent job on the water management. thats always no1 priority.

and yes there is idiots who still cling to the "if the ground is dry you don't need it". i'll admit i fell for that many many many years ago. if its wet, fix the drainage. if its dry its because what water there is has evaporated and we do not want that moisture going up into the home. sadly i've heard of them ripping out the poly when doing insulation installs, so much for "professionals". insulation needs to be continuous. you loose quite a bit of insulation value if you miss a small area.

what to use filling the floor gaps i have no idea, not really my thing.

ventilation, you do not want to use energy recovery ventilation. even heat recovery is probably a bit pointless. there is other options.

Thanks - it's one of those things people seem to miss as it's either too hard (and expensive) or they would rather have a new kitchen etc. But when the house was reroofed and I had a look at the water that was already getting onto the timber, I was glad to have made it number 1 priority.

And yeah, I did read that if you miss a bit of insulation, it's not just 95% effective but a LOT lower. Although my house do have a front extension (1950's weatherboard) that is very close to the ground and I REALLY notice the cold on the floorboards in that part. I just need to find someone who can work out how to put a groundsheet under the whole area.

Ventilation can wait until I get the ground sheet done. Oh and I am getting Thermawood retrofit double glazing (keeping the wood!!!) on half the windows next month.

Also had a quote for in-wall insulation from Insulmax, the spray in foam. @tweake why do you not recommend this? With the recent rewire there is no issue with electrics, are there other issues?

tweake

1042 posts

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#2944436 20-Jul-2022 20:07

timbosan:

Also had a quote for in-wall insulation from Insulmax, the spray in foam. @tweake why do you not recommend this? With the recent rewire there is no issue with electrics, are there other issues?

two main reasons, one is many old homes have no building paper so nothing to keep water out of the insulation. i'm not 100% sure on what insulation they use, they claim its repels water. but haw that will perform long term is anyone's guess.

the other is they drill through the cladding. so even if well repaired you have hundreds of potential leak locations. i much prefer to leave cladding alone as much as possible. i would take the gib off and do it that way. hopefully improve air tightness around the gib, install new electrical if you want and you get to paint it new colors.

mattwnz

19378 posts

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#2944578 20-Jul-2022 23:17

lxsw20:

There is way more to sound proofing than just filling the walls with fluff. Building harmonics is a pretty difficult thing to resolve.

It is not about sound proofing, but reducing sound, and there are also gib products that can help. But two layers of 10mm gib by itself isn't going to stop that much sound, and if people are using steel framing rather than timber, that can really make the house very noisy. Insulation in walls also has thermal benefits too, so it is about improving the environment in that room for a relatively small price if done during construction.

fe31nz

1081 posts

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#2944586 21-Jul-2022 00:19

timbosan:

excellent job on the water management. thats always no1 priority.

and yes there is idiots who still cling to the "if the ground is dry you don't need it". i'll admit i fell for that many many many years ago. if its wet, fix the drainage. if its dry its because what water there is has evaporated and we do not want that moisture going up into the home. sadly i've heard of them ripping out the poly when doing insulation installs, so much for "professionals". insulation needs to be continuous. you loose quite a bit of insulation value if you miss a small area.

There is a situation where the ground can really be dry under the house. We have a huge oak tree that has roots going all the way under out house, and it takes massive amounts of water out of the ground whenever it is in leaf - tonnes per day! As it grew and sucked out all the water, it actually caused the ground to settle a bit and bent the house, so I do not recommend this method of drying the ground under a house.

darylblake

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#2944620 21-Jul-2022 08:12

My old place was 1965 weatherboard, with no insulation in the walls, minimal in the ceiling, and nothing under the floor.

I couldn't do much about the ceiling. It was sufficient, but roof cavity was so low, I couldnt really get in there.

I stopped the drafts going under the house. Added the underfloor and that instantly helped, i Just did it myself with a staple gun and some earthwool insulation.

I had been using heaters to heat the home. But the best item I did by far was installing a smartvent ventilation system, the mould and window dampness went overnight and cleared up even more and more over the next year or so as the house eventually dried itself out. The cost of double glazing my windows would have not really been worth the benefit, unless I was either going to be there longer term.

Handsomedan

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#2944630 21-Jul-2022 09:03

FWIW, the combo of ceiling and underfloor insulation in an otherwise uninsulated home really makes a massive difference - we were uninsulated and cold for years before we took advantage of the EECA grant and got our place insulated.

Our house was built in the days when a bit of foil-lined gib was considered insulation.

Looking forward to the new gutters moving moisture away from the interior of the home instead of towards it, too! That should help with keeping it a little drier and healthier (although we have never had an issue with mould or visible damp spots).

Venting the bathroom fan outside was a big one, too - made a huge difference. It used to be vented into the ceiling cavity. Made the surrounding rooms feel slightly more damp.

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tweake

1042 posts

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#2944679 21-Jul-2022 11:14

fe31nz:

timbosan:

excellent job on the water management. thats always no1 priority.

and yes there is idiots who still cling to the "if the ground is dry you don't need it". i'll admit i fell for that many many many years ago. if its wet, fix the drainage. if its dry its because what water there is has evaporated and we do not want that moisture going up into the home. sadly i've heard of them ripping out the poly when doing insulation installs, so much for "professionals". insulation needs to be continuous. you loose quite a bit of insulation value if you miss a small area.

There is a situation where the ground can really be dry under the house. We have a huge oak tree that has roots going all the way under out house, and it takes massive amounts of water out of the ground whenever it is in leaf - tonnes per day! As it grew and sucked out all the water, it actually caused the ground to settle a bit and bent the house, so I do not recommend this method of drying the ground under a house.

i'll bet there is still plenty of moisture coming out of that ground. there is testing methods to check.

you actually hit on another factor and thats the trees near the house emitting moisture into the air, which then travels through the house.

TinyTim

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#2944825 21-Jul-2022 15:30

darylblake:

The cost of double glazing my windows would have not really been worth the benefit, unless I was either going to be there longer term.

This is an interesting comment because so many people are double glazing, but when we've looked into it, we decided it would take us decades to get a return through heating savings. (Yes we do have condensation on the windows but it's not a damp house - we face the prevailing wind and have two open fireplaces so ventilation isn't a problem.)

It's a 1920s villa, big family house. When we moved in in the early 2000s it had insulfluff in the ceiling and nothing else. I added a layer of Batts across the whole ceiling, and we've added wall insulation when we've done renovations (about half done now), plus we double glazed the new rooms we added about 10 years ago.

Our big problem is downstairs there's no underfloor access and the walls are concrete with the lining directly attached, so there's no room for insulation there. So the old downstairs rooms (master bedroom and study) are a lot colder than the rest of the house. I guess double glazing those rooms may help but now the kids are older teenagers so our plans are more focused on kicking them out and us moving on than continuing to do the place up. The next family can solve that problem 😀.

Handle9

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#2944829 21-Jul-2022 15:47

You can insulate concrete walls using battens and polystyrene sheet. It works pretty well.

nic.wise

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#2944832 21-Jul-2022 15:51

kobiak:

I had carpet with underlay directly on concrete slab (I'm sure I had topic on GZ for that :)). During west akl winter, without heating - floor temp was around 8-10C (without heating) when it's 2-4C outside. I put XPS boards on the concrete + underlay + laminate - temp never dropped below 13-15C now without heating.

Oh, I have this setup - I need to look into XPS boards. We have concrete (sealed, but not WELL sealed) -> underlay -> carpet. It's "ok" but not great.

Nic Wise - fastchicken.co.nz

tweake

1042 posts

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#2944839 21-Jul-2022 16:11

TinyTim:

darylblake:

The cost of double glazing my windows would have not really been worth the benefit, unless I was either going to be there longer term.

This is an interesting comment because so many people are double glazing, but when we've looked into it, we decided it would take us decades to get a return through heating savings.

this is one of the issues here. kiwis tend not to value heating very well. very well taught not to use heating. we focus very heavily on making money from homes and don't stay in homes all that long. hence we always want cheap crap houses.

for eg UK 93% of homes have double glazing, so huge amounts of retrofits going on and many decades before nz started requiring double glazing.

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