Warm / Dry / Clean houses - how should it be done in NZ?

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#2944843 21-Jul-2022 16:21

Handle9: You can insulate concrete walls using battens and polystyrene sheet. It works pretty well.

We did that for the en suite last year. Plus they pulled up the floorboards and insulated the floor. It went from the coldest room in the house (furthest from the central heating) to the warmest. The room must be smaller but I don't really notice it.

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TinyTim

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#2944844 21-Jul-2022 16:25

tweake:

TinyTim:

[snip]

This is an interesting comment because so many people are double glazing, but when we've looked into it, we decided it would take us decades to get a return through heating savings.

this is one of the issues here. kiwis tend not to value heating very well. very well taught not to use heating. we focus very heavily on making money from homes and don't stay in homes all that long. hence we always want cheap crap houses.

for eg UK 93% of homes have double glazing, so huge amounts of retrofits going on and many decades before nz started requiring double glazing.

To be fair if it were down to me double glazing would probably be next on my list but my wife wants to put the money towards the next house which won't be cheap and nasty. (But will be smaller.)

Handle9

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#2944850 21-Jul-2022 16:46

tweake:
TinyTim:

This is an interesting comment because so many people are double glazing, but when we've looked into it, we decided it would take us decades to get a return through heating savings.

this is one of the issues here. kiwis tend not to value heating very well. very well taught not to use heating. we focus very heavily on making money from homes and don't stay in homes all that long. hence we always want cheap crap houses.

for eg UK 93% of homes have double glazing, so huge amounts of retrofits going on and many decades before nz started requiring double glazing.

Nah it’s reflective of the amount of heating you can buy compared to the cost of double glazing retrofits in NZ. If there’s a simple payback of more than 10 years then it doesn’t make much sense to do, you are better off just paying the extra heating cost.

The uk is a colder climate with temperatures below freezing being common. Despite this there are still plenty of crappy, cold houses in the uk.

tweake

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#2944858 21-Jul-2022 17:17

Handle9:

Nah it’s reflective of the amount of heating you can buy compared to the cost of double glazing retrofits in NZ. If there’s a simple payback of more than 10 years then it doesn’t make much sense to do, you are better off just paying the extra heating cost.

The uk is a colder climate with temperatures below freezing being common. Despite this there are still plenty of crappy, cold houses in the uk.

didn't places in nz hit -10c the other week ???

payback of 10 years, yeah thats the interesting part. usa people on average stay in there homes for 14 years, UK looks to be similar (i don't have good info on it), while nz is 7 years. we don't bother retrofitting because odds are we won't be living there. put a new kitchen etc in because that increase value and makes us money.

its also funny that people complain about cost of heating here. so many people do not heat homes properly and many don't at all. its "put a jumper on" "nz is not cold".

UK has homes hundreds of years old, if 93% have double glazing, can't be to many bad ones left.

neb

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#2944861 21-Jul-2022 17:29

timmmay:
Ceiling insulation, more than the minimum spec. Learn how to install it properly or get it done for you. I found ceiling insulation to be much more effective than wall or under-floor, and adding a second layer in the ceiling helped some more.

Yup. If you've already got R-something-or-other insulation up there, often batts stuffed between roof trusses or similar, consider getting some rolls of blanket insulation and putting a solid layer of that over everything. You can often get a few rolls cheap off Trademe where someone's got some left over from another job, it's probably the best bang per buck you can get, and the least amount of hassle to install as well.

neb

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#2944865 21-Jul-2022 17:36

timmmay:
Double glazing

Before that, replacing alu window frames with uPVC or similar. The windows at the Casa could have glad wrap in them and you still wouldn't notice anything for all the heat leaked via the thick alu window frames:

neb

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#2944914 21-Jul-2022 17:43

tweake:
thats a bit of major work to fix those internal gutter systems.

Klass Fascia and similar guttering is made of plutonium by the antichrist. Since they're forming a dam around the edge of your roof, every time there's sufficient rainfall to overwhelm the downpipes the water overflows inwards into the walls of your house. If you google any of the brand names associated with it you'll find nothing but companies that fix the leaks caused by that style of guttering. Like Microsoft and antivirus companies, they've managed to create an entire industry that exists just to clean up the mess they made.

neb

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#2944915 21-Jul-2022 17:45

vexxxboy:
i have a 1964 weatherboard house with insulation in the roof and under floor. The floor is a metre of the ground. We have one huge heatpump in the lounge that heats the whole house . We never get condensation on the windows or i have never had to wipe water off the window sills. The House is warm and dry and it has to get near 0 degrees outside before we need the heat pump on. the difference between winter electricity bill and summer is about $60. i must admit this is the warmest house i have been in .

I don't understand this... was it built by European immigrants?

neb

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#2944917 21-Jul-2022 17:47

lxsw20:
Yeap I've spoken to a few builders who see zero point in insulating internal walls. If the customer wants it and is happy to pay for it they are more than happy to do it.

Unless it's for sound insulation purposes. Many houses have a lounge or living room that's next to at least one bedroom, in which case you definitely want insulation in the wall between the two.

Handle9

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#2944918 21-Jul-2022 17:47

tweake:

Handle9:

Nah it’s reflective of the amount of heating you can buy compared to the cost of double glazing retrofits in NZ. If there’s a simple payback of more than 10 years then it doesn’t make much sense to do, you are better off just paying the extra heating cost.

The uk is a colder climate with temperatures below freezing being common. Despite this there are still plenty of crappy, cold houses in the uk.

didn't places in nz hit -10c the other week ???

payback of 10 years, yeah thats the interesting part. usa people on average stay in there homes for 14 years, UK looks to be similar (i don't have good info on it), while nz is 7 years. we don't bother retrofitting because odds are we won't be living there. put a new kitchen etc in because that increase value and makes us money.

its also funny that people complain about cost of heating here. so many people do not heat homes properly and many don't at all. its "put a jumper on" "nz is not cold".

UK has homes hundreds of years old, if 93% have double glazing, can't be to many bad ones left.

Three quarters of NZ population lives in the North Island. It's uncommon for it to get really cold, certainly relative to European temperatures.

The housing stock is also very different with very different construction industries and cost bases.

The period you stay in a house doesn't effect an economic business case, the time value of money does. If the business case stacks up it will capitalise if you sell. Double glazing has a lot of benefits and should have always been mandated for new builds but retrofit is a different story.

Handle9

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#2944919 21-Jul-2022 17:49

neb:
lxsw20:

Yeap I've spoken to a few builders who see zero point in insulating internal walls. If the customer wants it and is happy to pay for it they are more than happy to do it.

Unless it's for sound insulation purposes. Many houses have a lounge or living room that's next to at least one bedroom, in which case you definitely want insulation in the wall between the two.

It's really nice to live in a house with internal sound insulation, it makes a difference and is relatively cheap when it's being built. It's not a thermal solution though.

neb

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#2944921 21-Jul-2022 17:51

Handle9: You can insulate concrete walls using battens and polystyrene sheet. It works pretty well.

That's how the basement of the Casa was done in the rebuild. It does an amazingly good job, the place stays warm and dry.

Handle9

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#2944924 21-Jul-2022 17:54

neb:
Handle9: You can insulate concrete walls using battens and polystyrene sheet. It works pretty well.
That's how the basement of the Casa was done in the rebuild. It does an amazingly good job, the place stays warm and dry.

Mum did it in the granny flat 20 years ago. It went from being a cold, dark dungeon to a warm dark dungeon.

timbosan

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#2944935 21-Jul-2022 18:24

neb:
timmmay:

Double glazing

Double glazzing on my house is scheduled for next month on half the windows, the main reasons for getting it done is the current windows are drafty (the blinds move in the wind) and on a road with some commercial buildings so it can be noisy. Plus no plans to move (done that too many times already!!!). Once done the other half will be done.

I chose Thermawood, which is retrofit where they keep the wooden frames, build new windows, do have a drain system of some sort. Plus I chose the draft seals which the windows push up against when closed. Not cheap (it will be approx $5000 for the biggest window in the house with 6 separate window sections) but to me its a longer term investment and it will also make a big different to heat and noise (especially since most of the current opening windows are drafty).

Probably out of order compared to some of the other things, but based on comments here I will be revisiting the ground sheet ASAP.

tweake

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#2944950 21-Jul-2022 19:13

Handle9:

Three quarters of NZ population lives in the North Island. It's uncommon for it to get really cold, certainly relative to European temperatures.

The housing stock is also very different with very different construction industries and cost bases.

The period you stay in a house doesn't effect an economic business case, the time value of money does. If the business case stacks up it will capitalise if you sell. Double glazing has a lot of benefits and should have always been mandated for new builds but retrofit is a different story.

i've had some cold times in central NI. i know Canadians who complain about the cold in northland. it gets cold enough. you also have to factor that current insulation standards are basically below half that of comparable overseas locations. given our high energy costs we should be world leaders in efficient buildings.

"economic business case" says it all. all about the profit when you sell the house and nothing to do with the social or human element. ie put up with the cold to make money.

the interesting thing happening at the moment is it looks like people are pulling out of building new homes, at the same time FHBers have reached their limits and can no longer afford to buy the houses. people may not be able to sell like the used to for quite some time to come. they may just have to stay in their homes and live with their "economic business case".

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