Solar options for home in 2022.

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546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3119522 23-Aug-2023 19:15

PolicyGuy:

HarmLessSolutions:

... grid voltage kept droping below 230V until about 3:30pm during which time the inverter repeatedly tripped out and on again. grey peak after is export for remainder of the day. Disappointing waste of a sunny day due to Powerco's infrastructure failing to perform and our installer has approached Powerco for the okay to widen out the inverter's grid voltage acceptance parameters.

Interesting

Powerco is also my Lines Company, in suburban Whanganui.
I just looked in my UPS log file for the last week:

....

Our PV installer called by this afternoon and using access info provided by Frontius in Australia he tweaked a few settings on our inverter. Essentially pulling back some of its sensitivity to grid voltage fluctuations which should hopefully reduce the outages we're experiencing.

Some of his comments regarding the ability of Powerco's infrastructure, particularly in Taranaki, to cope with the demands coming from PV inputs and EV charging were enlightening. In his having seen the Australian grid infrastucture upgrade to cope it seems we are behind the game in that regard in NZ. 2% PV uptake here compared to ~35% in AU we have quite a bit of catching up to look forward to. Hopefully TPTB over the next few years are aware of what is involved in electrifying NZ.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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eonsim

262 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3119523 23-Aug-2023 19:23

HarmLessSolutions:

then grid voltage kept droping below 230V until about 3:30pm during which time the inverter repeatedly tripped out and on again. grey peak after is export for remainder of the day. Disappointing waste of a sunny day due to Powerco's infrastructure failing to perform and our installer has approached Powerco for the okay to widen out the inverter's grid voltage acceptance parameters. Apparently at least 3 other PV installations in our area are currently experiencing the same issue with this being a hot topic for next month's SEANZ conference.

I'm surprised you are dropping out for low voltage, typically with solar the issues is high voltage causing trip outs. We typically see voltages in the 220V range with our Fronius inverter happily pumping out power. Instead we get trip outs when the voltage ~250V when we are exporting power and the inverter is trying to push power backout to the grid by raising the voltage.

For example today, early morning voltage is 220 and inverter is happily generating...

neb

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#3119526 23-Aug-2023 19:32

eonsim:
I'm surprised you are dropping out for low voltage, typically with solar the issues is high voltage causing trip outs we typically see voltages in the 220V range with our Fronius inverter happily pumping out power. Instead we get tripouts when the voltage ~250V when we are exporting power and the inverter is trying to push power backout to the grid by raising the voltage.

Another thing you may see, going in the other direction, is EES setups pulling the mains voltage down a lot once the time for free or cheap power arrives as the batteries recharge. The grid here drops from around 240V to 225V when that happens, I've pinged Enphase about it to request an ability to limit the charging rate but they just have a canned "Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter" response to most queries.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3136449 29-Sep-2023 11:54

Our solar install is planned for Monday and I was informed by my installer yesterday of an unexpected hiccup. To give context:

The lines company is Powerco. We propose a panel array of 12.45kW with 2 x 8kW inverters with the load balanced over the 2 phases limited to 5kW export on each phase. New build in a new subdivision so expect all infrastructure to be up to speed. The installer expected that this would be deemed a 10kW system and made application to Powerco on this basis. Applications for 10kW or smaller are a simple one step process, free of charge. Powerco have rejected the application stating that because our inverters are to be 8kW, we must apply for DG over 10kW. I have come to learn this is a multistep process and therefore application is not going to be approved before we start the install. Cost is $500

So, has anyone had a similar experience? I'm a bit concerned about starting the work without Powerco's approval in place. Initially I thought this must just be a Powerco thing, but I see Waipa Networks have a similar system, so can't understand how we got to this stage without this being flagged.

As an aside, this will likely impact on who I can use as a power company. Octopus will only buy back power up to 10kW output. The same with Meridian, but they say "talk to us if above 10kW". Genisis & Frank Energy 50kW or less so they are ok. Waiting to hear back from Electric Kiwi. I am assuming that "output" as defined by the power companies is the same as "DG" defined by the lines companys. Maybe not?

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3136506 29-Sep-2023 12:53

Well, this may have been a storm in a teacup. Just received approval back from Powerco without any unexpected conditions.

Nor is it an issue with Electric Kiwi (my current provider), so full steam ahead.

HarmLessSolutions

546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3136535 29-Sep-2023 13:30

traderstu:

Well, this may have been a storm in a teacup. Just received approval back from Powerco without any unexpected conditions.

Nor is it an issue with Electric Kiwi (my current provider), so full steam ahead.

I was just about to respond to your earlier post but my experience may still be of interest/value to you.

DG refers to Distributed Generation, so PV, micro hydro, wind turbines, etc exporting from a customer's location.

We recently upgraded our PV from 5.2 to 9.6kW (through a Frontius 8.2kW inverter). Over panelled to boost generation at less than peak sunshine periods and all through a single phase. We're in rural Taranaki and also with Powerco who have a 5kV maximum per phase so export is monitored by way of a CT clamp on the incoming/outgoing main and the inverter throttles back to limit export as necessary. Our installer provided a formal plan to show how this would be accomplished on Powerco's request, and to their satisfaction.

We have 2 phases supplying us but opted to put all of our consumption and export on a single phase for simplicity and economic reasons.

I'd have been surprised if Powerco didn't give you the green light so long as your installer was experienced enough for Powerco to rely on their design.

Our system has worked extremely well in the 6 weeks since it was commissioned with the only issue being inverter trip outs due to grid voltage fluctuations which was remedied by doing a firmware reset on the inverter on Fronius's instruction.

From our observations, and our installer's comments, Powerco's infrastructure is in questionable condition, particularly in rural areas and our situation was far from isolated. Even the addition of a 7kW EVSE is enough to trip pole fuses for some customers even though the total load isn't exceeding the 63A rating. The aged fuses are often just not up to 7+kW of sustained load for extended periods.

In this regard we have charged our EV for extended periods off peak twice over the past week and in both cases it results in the grid voltage (at our feed-in point) to drop to around 220V during the EVSE's active period. Our grid voltage is typically between 230 - 243V.

I have also spoken to Powerco's DG rep regarding the possibility of incorporating V2G/V2H in our system. Her response gave me the impression that Powerco is very much in catch up mode in regards to these emerging technologies but one point worth noting is how battery storage is added to a domestic DG system as it can be interpretted as adding to the export capacity if not carefully set up.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

billgates

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#3136557 29-Sep-2023 14:05

@traderstu Unlucky! I first emailed through the under 10kW application requirement with bunch of questions for our 2-phase setup I proposed and was given a written "Yes" from Waipa's network engineer along with 5kW/phase export limit in an email before I engaged with our Solar PV installers for quotes. Couple of PV installers also asked for email evidence as they had always dealt with PowerCo or WEL networks who are stricter in there regions. Once we submitted the DG application to Waipa networks, the approving officer did raise the 2-phase question and 10kW limit, but I provided emails as evidence, and they were happy. At the time, Waipa network did not have a 2-phase tick box option which was the approving officer's concern so they themselves told us to write it as 2-phase and re-submit the DG application again which they approved promptly. Total cost for application was $100 as advertised. Waipa networks have now since moved to an online application form and have added the 2-phase option. When we want to expand our PV array by another 4kW on both phases to from current 6kW to 10kW on each phase, we can still submit the under 10kW application form online as Waipa's limit for PV array and export is per phase and not combined output of both phases.

Waipa also has the $500 fees and multi-step approval process which can be declined and takes forty-five working days. I strongly recommend, you get the DG approval first else you will have a compliance nightmare on your hand if it's never approved with both PowerCo and your insurance provider if anything were to happen due to the Solar PV setup to your home causing any damage. We had to submit our DG approval, ROI and COC paperwork to our insurance provider once the work was completed as well. as you can see besides the personal info I have cutout, this is what our under 10kW application form for 2 phase setups looked like under Waipa Networks when it was paper based 10 months ago.

Do whatever you want to do man.

billgates

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#3136558 29-Sep-2023 14:07

traderstu:

Well, this may have been a storm in a teacup. Just received approval back from Powerco without any unexpected conditions.

Nor is it an issue with Electric Kiwi (my current provider), so full steam ahead.

Good news. Did you had to submit the over 10kW DG application for approval in the end or re-submit the initially rejected under 10kW application again for approval again with an explanation from your installer for re-consideration?

Do whatever you want to do man.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3136590 29-Sep-2023 15:11

@HarmLessSolutions Thanks for your reply. Always interesting to compare notes. One thing you learn fairly quickly on this solar "journey" is that it is a complicated beast and there is not a one size fits all solution.

For our part we are also rural (just) in our forever home so an easy decision to go pretty much all in with our solar. Our power usage is fairly high (approx 10700kWh/year) and we can afford to go for a larger system from the get-go for quickest ROI. The number of panels (30) was determined by how many we could fit on the roof out of sight of the ROW. We tossed up with single phase/2 phase setups and settled on 2 phase because it gave us better export potential, and options for more panels in the future. I didn't think a battery was good value for money now, or in the foreseeable future so the larger inverters would give us the overhead to install more panels instead, maximising export while still covering our base load during the sushine hours. Intuitively, I think oversizing this type of gear should give better reliabilty/life expectancy. Could be wrong on this.

Power cuts aren't a significant problem for us but we do have a small 2kW generator which we will wire to the switchboard as part of the install. Cost is about $1k so well worth it as it means we can get internet, fridges, freezer, pump etc up and running without having to drag extension leads to the 4 corners of the house.

Just bought an EV and are really enjoying the experience. As i said, we're all in and it was a logical extension to tap into solar for our driving needs. All this, along with the other self-sufficiencies imposed on us with rural living (drinking water, storm water, waste water) means we're feeling pretty fully prepped.

@billgates, no we submitted a new over 10kW application. Still blown away at how quickly they responded. I was mentally prepared for endless to & fro-ing. Thanks for starting this topic. It has been my main reference for this project. You might be interested to know that we have chosen the same installer that did your job.

HarmLessSolutions

546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3136600 29-Sep-2023 15:25

@traderstu, Judging from your situation check out Octopus as a supplier. Fixed Low User plan will give you 17c FIT on your export with 18c/kWh Night rate Works well if your daily generation/consumption habits are suitable. The 1c differential between export and night makes it a fairly efficient 'battery' so long as your day use isn't too heavy and in our case virtually no penalty for night charging of the EV if required.

Check out https://my.solaranalytics.com for a very useful tool to evaluate different deals.

We have 3 CT clamps on our main for the inverter, Paladin diverter and Evnex EVSE. The degree of control that the diverter and Evnex provide makes for some super efficient self consumption ability. Definitely worth considering a Paladin or EVSE that can be programmed to use solar only to maximise ROI.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

billgates

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#3136649 29-Sep-2023 17:21

@traderstu that's awesome. Bay Solar were excellent installers for us. What Solar PV inverter and panels are you going with? I know they prefer SunGrow which is prob the best Chinese owned inverter brand I would personally buy as well from tech and NZ support point of view. If you don't mind sharing the cost would be awesome so future readers can benefit from all the prices included in this thread for their reference. We will be adding the Sunny Island BYD LVS batteries in couple of years for resiliency from weather. Our EV has just arrived today in the country as well sitting on a dock in Auckland currently, but we will only pick it up around mid-November to pay as much from our own pocket and borrow less from the bank. EV will speed up our self-consumption once that arrives. We are installing the BMW EVSE as it came as freebie with offer from BMW NZ and I can integrate it with our SMA inverters using https://evcc.io project to dump excess solar to charge EV instead of sending it back to grid.

Do whatever you want to do man.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3137004 30-Sep-2023 13:36

HarmLessSolutions:

@traderstu, Judging from your situation check out Octopus as a supplier. Fixed Low User plan will give you 17c FIT on your export with 18c/kWh Night rate Works well if your daily generation/consumption habits are suitable. The 1c differential between export and night makes it a fairly efficient 'battery' so long as your day use isn't too heavy and in our case virtually no penalty for night charging of the EV if required.

Check out https://my.solaranalytics.com for a very useful tool to evaluate different deals.

We have 3 CT clamps on our main for the inverter, Paladin diverter and Evnex EVSE. The degree of control that the diverter and Evnex provide makes for some super efficient self consumption ability. Definitely worth considering a Paladin or EVSE that can be programmed to use solar only to maximise ROI.

Yes, Octopus is our fallback but as we are already a customer would like to give Electric Kiwi a shot. Presently we can get ~35% of our consumption during the hour of free power. HWC is on a timer, washer, dryer, dishwasher on delayed start and we are still running our heat pumps for an hour when we get up in the morning just to take the chill off. Since we have had the car we have done most of our charging during this period on the 8amp charger. We are getting an Evnex charger as part of the solar install so I'm sure that it will be no problem for us to keep it charged sufficiently for 99% of our running during HOP.

So, hoping that our excess during the day will offset the evening peak, nightime base load.

We are fitting an Evnex charger. It is NZ made and plays nicely with the various tariffs from different power companies. It will be a good fit for us as it appears to have good capability for scheduled charging. Scheduled charging in the car is very basic. (Lexus UX300e). Will check out the SolarAnalytics site.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3137005 30-Sep-2023 13:37

billgates:

@traderstu that's awesome. Bay Solar were excellent installers for us. What Solar PV inverter and panels are you going with? I know they prefer SunGrow which is prob the best Chinese owned inverter brand I would personally buy as well from tech and NZ support point of view. If you don't mind sharing the cost would be awesome so future readers can benefit from all the prices included in this thread for their reference. We will be adding the Sunny Island BYD LVS batteries in couple of years for resiliency from weather. Our EV has just arrived today in the country as well sitting on a dock in Auckland currently, but we will only pick it up around mid-November to pay as much from our own pocket and borrow less from the bank. EV will speed up our self-consumption once that arrives. We are installing the BMW EVSE as it came as freebie with offer from BMW NZ and I can integrate it with our SMA inverters using https://evcc.io project to dump excess solar to charge EV instead of sending it back to grid.

Panels are Jinko All Black 30 x 415W, our roof is charcoal/black so hopefully the improved aethetics is worth the sacrifice in performance. The roof is a 30 degree pitch but quite a complicated design. While the layout was never going to be pretty, none of the panels are visible from the front of the house/ROW.

Yes, as you guessed I'm happy with Sean's recommendation of Sungrow inverters. I felt the 5kW option would limit our options for the future so opted for 8kW. These inverters have the advantage of 3 MMP inputs each so they give good flexibility for balancing the panel setup we have allowed for, plus some headroom in case we need it in the future.

Total cost is $26700, this includes supply & install of the Evnex wall box ($2250) and a plug & changeover switch for my generator($950). Pricing for the most part was fairly close when differences in number of panels and different inverter options were taken into account, but Sean was head and shoulders above the others in that he visited site and climbed onto the roof to take some measurements to make sure he was optimising the panel layout around our range hood vent. Harrisons were the outlier with a more expensive option and the way the quote was put together i was a bit concerned when the panel layout they suggested didn't meet the brief they were given. They seemed reluctant to give me a price for the generator and wall box so they quickly ended up in the "too hard basket".

Like others, I have put off the battery at this stage. For me I think I would get a better ROI by putting up more panels and using the grid for my battery. But also keeping a close eye on how things develop with V2H using a Leaf. Our 2nd vehicle is an aging Prado so perhaps when we are finished with the heavy towing around here a Leaf would make a sensible replacement.

Or perhaps I could convert the Prado to biofuel - that would be an interesting project.

billgates

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#3137016 30-Sep-2023 14:34

@traderstu nice setup! I take it that's an 8kW inverter on each phase and fifteen panels connected to each phase? I would be keen to see a photo of the plug and changeover switch for your generator when it's ready. Which model generator do you have as I am planning to get a cheap small second hand 2kW Honda generator and with help of Bay Solar for future upgrade with an automatic failover switch to connect to SMA Sunny Island battery inverter as my fail-safe backup once we add batteries in case, they run out during an extended outage period. The generator will be able to kick start the AC SMA Sunny Boy and charge the batteries a bit with help of generator and sun can then take care of rest from there again to charge up batteries to full. Is Sean & Daniel doing the Evnex install as well or does Exnex contracts that out to an installer of there choice?

Do whatever you want to do man.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3137024 30-Sep-2023 15:13

Yes, 2 inverterters but not sure of the exact configuration given the 3 orientations of the panels.

I'll give you more details on the changeover arrangement when it's done. Our's will be a very manual setup with the changeover switch manually operated to disconnect from the grid and switch to the generator. I expect that we will start with all of the breakers off, then just turn on the ones that are for the circuits that are essential (fridge, pump etc). If I understand correctly, Sean has sourced a switch that will enable isolating the grid on both phases, then connect both phases in common to the generator plug, this eliminating the need to faff around changing all essential loads onto one phase, but let me confirm this with Sean in case I have it wrong.

Yes, our generator is a Honda EU22i. very quiet, happy with how it's performed though it hasn't had a lot of work. I guess I should say that i have a slightly different take on this backup/battery situation. Power outages are not a big thing for us, not at the moment anyway. For this reason the prime purpose of a battery (or V2H Leaf) on our solar would be to improve self-sufficiency rather than backup in a power cut. The generator is there to provide a small amount of backup in a power cut and is a much more cost effective solution than a solar battery. And wiring up a plug to the switchboard means that we can deploy it fairly quickly without the need to run extension leads everywhere and pull fridges and freezers out from the wall to connect them. Have asked for heavier cabling to the plug (32 amps) so that we can swap for a larger generator down the track if power cuts become more of a thing.

Yes, Sean & co will wire up the Evnex.

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