Panasonic vs Mitsubishi ducted heat pump and ventilation solutions

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#3309926 17-Nov-2024 17:24

tweake:

its part of the system (as shown in the video) but sold separately, like ducts, outlets returns etc. the air cleaning filters and box do not come with loosnay and is often left out to make it cheaper (but causes problems)

the problem with using filters in the erv is they are small, low filtration, clog up quick and some manufactures use custom sizes so your stuck with their prices and availability. the erv filter is only there to protect the core, thats all. manufactures have tried to make it "all in one" by putting better filters in but that causes issues. notice the difference in size of the filters in the video, the finer the filter the bigger it needs to be.

its also worth looking at if you might want to get carbon filters (eg it removes neighbors cooking smells). you would need a dual filter box. after all the whole point of all this is to supply clean air.

part of the story behind the first part of the video is matt originally never had the pre filter box. but his Zehnder erv filters where clogging up fast. those zehnder filters are non-standard filters $$$. also he added a 2nd filter box because those erv filters are not fine enough. so now he has 3 filters. the 2nd half of the video shows a better way to do it where he has stock protection filters on the erv and all the air cleaning is done by one filter on the inlet. so only one filter ever needs changing and its a stock standard size.

Is there such a thing as standard filter boxes and standard filters in NZ? I spent some time looking around last year and I couldn't find anything... but I may not have been looking in the right place or using the right search terms.

I'd like to see if it's practical to put a decent sized filter in line with my ducted system. The main intake filter ends up pretty dusty, we have thick carpet I think that's where a lot of the dust comes from.

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tweake

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#3309935 17-Nov-2024 18:15

we use https://www.camfil.com/en-nz/products/general-ventilation-filters for work.

AlDrag

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#3309972 17-Nov-2024 22:04

Ok I need to watch tweake's video from start to finish. I only had a quick glance at the time as I thought it was unrelated to Lossnay (due to the different brand). Sorry about that. It sounds like this filter box is between the outdoor fresh air intake and the lossnay.

Here is an image of my "proposed" idea for the ducted setup in terms of vents. Please give me advice :) The outlet location was chosen based on avoiding having the outlets above beds, as I think the beds will be in the other corners of the room. It would be preferred to be in the opposite corner of the door I assume, but not if it's going to be above a bed?

Not 100% sure about the extractor grille location. I put it around the corner, just above the stairs, so it isn't directly above me in that study landing area where I will have an office desk and thus allows ducted air to actually touch me there.
On that note, is having a 4th outlet in the hallway dumb? Or should I just rely on the air coming from the rooms? I guess if it's just me home alone, having the option of just cooling/heating the hallway/landing area is nice.

Not yet sure about having a lossnay vent go down to the bottom floor. Will need to think about that and talk to my wife haha.

Also, is it a good idea to complete replace the existing extractor fans in the bathroom with Lossnay returns? or have both?

Sorry this is taking so long to sort out. It's a lot of money that can go wrong and thus want to make sure it actually does a great job and is efficient.

timmmay

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#3309973 17-Nov-2024 22:20

Could you please update the map to show the desk location?

The diffuser location for each room depends which kind of diffuser you're having. Are you going to have the simple round ones, or the square MDO ones?

Are you still thinking undercut doors to get air out of the rooms? Or are you considering grills. Undercut doors do not have a lot of area, they will probably impede air flow.

I'd like the answers to those questions before I give an opinion on outlet diffuser and return vent locations.

AlDrag

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#3309974 17-Nov-2024 22:31

timmmay: Could you please update the map to show the desk location?

The diffuser location for each room depends which kind of diffuser you're having. Are you going to have the simple round ones, or the square MDO ones?

Are you still thinking undercut doors to get air out of the rooms? Or are you considering grills. Undercut doors do not have a lot of area, they will probably impede air flow.

I'd like the answers to those questions before I give an opinion on outlet diffuser and return vent locations.

Sorry about that. Forgot to reply to your questions. I updated my previous comment with a new image.

I'm thinking that I will try see how it functions without any modifications to the doors. It'll just be my me, my wife and our toddler living in this place, so maybe we can just leave our doors open a bit. I'll probably have the door closed at times in the spare room (when I'm gaming or have a meeting maybe). To be fair, maybe need to keep our toddler's bedroom closed too.

Regardless, I assume having undercut doors or grilles doesn't change the location of the outlets? I could just install door grilles later on if I feel we need it. You claim it doesn't impede sound damping too much (hope that's true).

If we have the aircon on low speed to just "maintain" temperature, will the lack of significant area under the doors matter much?

Edit: I guess if I have the door/s closed while starting up the aircon at medium/high speed, the lack of grilles or large undercut doors could be a problem, but once at temperature, the balance probably balances nicely, I guess it just depends on well insulated my home is.

AlDrag

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#3309976 17-Nov-2024 22:37

Just saw this as an idea, seems pretty cool! They cool it a jumper duct. https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/the-central-vs-dedicated-return-vent-debate/

timmmay

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#3309977 17-Nov-2024 22:43

The updated map helps thanks.

If you do wall grills rather than door grills that can make a difference to the outlet locations. Wall grills can be larger than door grills I think. Also because they are thicker they can probably dampen sound more effectively, but obviously it is still an open hole so some sound does get through even with baffles.

Have you decided on diffuser type?

I probably wouldn't put outlets and returns where you have suggested, but again it depends on the diffuser type.

AlDrag

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#3309978 17-Nov-2024 22:48

timmmay: The updated map helps thanks.

If you do wall grills rather than door grills that can make a difference to the outlet locations. Wall grills can be larger than door grills I think. Also because they are thicker they can probably dampen sound more effectively, but obviously it is still an open hole so some sound does get through even with baffles.

Have you decided on diffuser type?

I probably wouldn't put outlets and returns where you have suggested, but again it depends on the diffuser type.

Sorry again, I keep missing stuff haha.

I think I like your diffuser suggestion, the square ones, since it allows you to adjust the path in multiple spots. Very cool. Not sure if my installer has access to them though, but I could ask.

I read just now, that a good idea with wall grilles is installing them at an offset. e.g. install the hall grille higher or to the side further than the bedroom side to make the sound have less of a clear path. Maybe more complicated to install though.

timmmay

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#3309984 18-Nov-2024 07:03

I had installers use diffusers I ordered the first time, it wasn't a problem. I'd just check with them. Even if you have to get them from Australia they're worth it IMHO.

The wall vents mean you can position the supply diffuser and vent, which is effectively a return vent, more flexibly without worrying about doors. In general you want the air to be drawn across the whole room, your design has it missing most of the room, though those vents give you more flexibility the locations aren't ideal. When the ducted units are on low it's usually a very slow air movement, it's quite different from a high wall blowing air everywhere. The vents I used had to come from the USA, on Fedex reshipper from memory, cost wasn't too bad in the context of the install. They're not that bad to install, I had a builder do it. You just cut out the size needed and poke them through. We ended up buying extra white headed screws and securing them at the corners of the vents rather than using just two screws, that wasn't difficult either.

Here's what I'd do:

Wall vents low down, beside the doors. This means you can try it without the vents and then add later if required, though I wouldn't use it on anything other than low without dedicated vents. I suspect without the vents the room will end up pressurised, the air will find it's way out through small holes and cracks, including outside.
Supply diffusers opposite corner from the wall vent. This means the air is drawn across the room. Take the installer diagram and move the diffusers nearer the corner of the room diagnonally opposite the wall vents.
Put a supply diffuser above your desk - maybe slightly behind, maybe directly above. I'm not sure if you'd want air blowing in your face, but again the MDO vents give you flexibility. If it's the only zone turned on, even on low fan, there could be a reasonable amount of air coming out.
Return vent where the installer said.

AlDrag

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#3309985 18-Nov-2024 07:18

Looks like these are like the diffusers you are proposing? https://smooth-air.co.nz/mdo-multi-directional-outlet
And it's from the same website the installer gets their supplies.

Looks like in bedroom 2, I don't have any walls overlaying with the hallway, but maybe I can do the jump duct idea for that room (or all). But that would be less efficient as it means air is traveling up.

The installer recommended the return vent in the middle of the hallway fyi. But if you think that'll be fine, I'm happy. I'll update the diagram today.

I wonder if there's a sensor I can get that measures a room's pressure and can then integrate with home assistant.

timmmay

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#3309995 18-Nov-2024 07:58

Have a look at bedroom 2 when you're in there. I would probably go with a door vent rather than a jump duct, jump duct is going to go outside the insulated envelope again. Downside of the door vent is they have less space to dampen noise and light then a wall, which is thicker.

You would also want to try to have the air outlet in the ceiling and the return, or the vent, near the floor, so air is drawn across the room and down. If both supply and return are on the ceiling the floor level doesn't get as warm even with good supply diffusers.

tweake

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#3310292 18-Nov-2024 17:01

AlDrag:

Ok I need to watch tweake's video from start to finish. I only had a quick glance at the time as I thought it was unrelated to Lossnay (due to the different brand). Sorry about that. It sounds like this filter box is between the outdoor fresh air intake and the lossnay.

Here is an image of my "proposed" idea for the ducted setup in terms of vents. Please give me advice :) The outlet location was chosen based on avoiding having the outlets above beds, as I think the beds will be in the other corners of the room. It would be preferred to be in the opposite corner of the door I assume, but not if it's going to be above a bed?

Not 100% sure about the extractor grille location. I put it around the corner, just above the stairs, so it isn't directly above me in that study landing area where I will have an office desk and thus allows ducted air to actually touch me there.
On that note, is having a 4th outlet in the hallway dumb? Or should I just rely on the air coming from the rooms? I guess if it's just me home alone, having the option of just cooling/heating the hallway/landing area is nice.

Not yet sure about having a lossnay vent go down to the bottom floor. Will need to think about that and talk to my wife haha.

Also, is it a good idea to complete replace the existing extractor fans in the bathroom with Lossnay returns? or have both?

Sorry this is taking so long to sort out. It's a lot of money that can go wrong and thus want to make sure it actually does a great job and is efficient.

the ventilation filter goes between the outside air inlet and the lossnay.

the outlets really need to go more in the center of the house so you don't have the roof in the way of the ducts. same thing with the return air grill. no way that size duct is going to fit in there. put the return in the hallway, even if its just outside bed1 door.

i don't see the point of the hallway vent (unless using it as spill area etc). think whole home heating, not heating by room.

loosnay vent downstairs, i would pull up the carpet in the closet and see if its even possible. if there is a joist in the way, forget it.

replace the bath fans with lossnay. i don't see the point of having both and having both running creates airflow issues. it is actually code complaint to have loosnay only.

don't forget your going to have some airflow going up/down the stairs. hot air wants to come up and cold wants to go down.

AlDrag

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#3310310 18-Nov-2024 17:56

tweake:

the ventilation filter goes between the outside air inlet and the lossnay.

the outlets really need to go more in the center of the house so you don't have the roof in the way of the ducts. same thing with the return air grill. no way that size duct is going to fit in there. put the return in the hallway, even if its just outside bed1 door.

i don't see the point of the hallway vent (unless using it as spill area etc). think whole home heating, not heating by room.

loosnay vent downstairs, i would pull up the carpet in the closet and see if its even possible. if there is a joist in the way, forget it.

replace the bath fans with lossnay. i don't see the point of having both and having both running creates airflow issues. it is actually code complaint to have loosnay only.

don't forget your going to have some airflow going up/down the stairs. hot air wants to come up and cold wants to go down.

Ok I have some questions now for the installer, so I will email them now.

Ok so I think I get you. We have basically a 45 degree pitch roof, but if it's too close to the edges, then there will be no room for the ducting (since it needs to go up). The pitch goes down on the North/South of the home (the picture is oriented correctly to the compass). So I guess I can possibly fit the vents close to the wall on the west side of the west side rooms, but not on the north and south edges. I will probably just do whatever the installer suggests. I assume either way, it should fill up the room adequately.

I will check out the carpet once I've moved in then.

Having the hallway as a spill area is probably ideal right? Otherwise just a bedroom will be a spill? If I'm ordering Airtouch 5, then why would I always want to heat/cool the entire floor?

So if I have no hallway vent, I guess that office desk space in the landing will still get to temperature due to the air from the rooms making its way to the return and the air from the bottom floor (when heating) will make its way to that space?

tweake

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#3310323 18-Nov-2024 19:28

AlDrag:

Ok I have some questions now for the installer, so I will email them now.

Ok so I think I get you. We have basically a 45 degree pitch roof, but if it's too close to the edges, then there will be no room for the ducting (since it needs to go up). The pitch goes down on the North/South of the home (the picture is oriented correctly to the compass). So I guess I can possibly fit the vents close to the wall on the west side of the west side rooms, but not on the north and south edges. I will probably just do whatever the installer suggests. I assume either way, it should fill up the room adequately.

I will check out the carpet once I've moved in then.

Having the hallway as a spill area is probably ideal right? Otherwise just a bedroom will be a spill? If I'm ordering Airtouch 5, then why would I always want to heat/cool the entire floor?

So if I have no hallway vent, I guess that office desk space in the landing will still get to temperature due to the air from the rooms making its way to the return and the air from the bottom floor (when heating) will make its way to that space?

read this, filters.

i have no comments on spill areas, i will let others answer that. you should always heat the whole house. heating just the room is a hack you do because the house sucks. the airtouch, if i understand it correctly, will help with different heating/cooling requirements in each room.

the office desk should get heating via the hallway, but also heating coming up from downstairs. part of the reason to put a ventilation vent downstairs is to make sure there is a little bit of air flow circulating from floor to floor.

timmmay

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#3310324 18-Nov-2024 19:29

Ducts can be pretty close to the edge of the house. Maybe not at the very edge. HVAC ducts can be 200 - 300mm, and they need to have a gentle bend to go down to the diffuser not a sharp bend or the outlet is loud.

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