LED Lighting

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#614835 25-Apr-2012 11:47

networkn: Also those ones you bought look very ugly for general residential lights.

Not in my recessed fittings which are very deep. And my wife actually prefers their light over the incandescents. I'll upload a photo sometime to compare, probably at night...

There is a standard for LED lights that came out. I've got a document on it at work, as of now if your LEDs have not been through approvals then you might not be covered by insurance, or something like that. It was a while ago, I'll have to dig it up. It is specific regarding LED light fittings, not light bulbs.

You can never have enough Volvos!

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richms

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#614838 25-Apr-2012 11:51

"Bulbs" are still basically a freeforall with stuffall covering them. Thats why you see powersupplies that would in no way have enough clearances and undersized components in a metal casing that for any other appliance would need earthing.

Also remember the massive changes to residential downlight requirements coming up in 2 weeks. Thats why lighting shops have been having massive sales on old stock. I got some nice 2x2 grid mr16 lamps for real cheap.

Richard rich.ms

Niel

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#615765 26-Apr-2012 22:43

I'll still post photos of the bulb in action, but testing at work on an AC power source showed 5.5W consumption. It is not 9W as advertised. It did look a bit dim to me, but it is actually suitable for what I want it for as you will see once I get the photos posted (been a long day/week).

I did inform the seller, waiting for a response.

I do not like the bulbs that look like a globe, because the ball absorbs some of the precious LED light (around 10% guestimate). COB is good, but a focussed down light is actually best for a TV room as you do not see a halo glare from the light fitting (wait for my photos).

You can never have enough Volvos!

Jimmy22

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#615862 27-Apr-2012 09:29

Got two 50w and a 100w Flood light from these guys yesterday.. pretty sure that would be bright enough for everyone... http://www.ledsunlimited.co.nz

Niel

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#616271 27-Apr-2012 20:38

Jimmy22, those are COB (chip on board) LEDs and they are great. I have a 50W LED (not the whole fitting, just the LED plate) and it is very bright. I bought it for about $50 a year ago, but you need to do heat management.

With your light it is worth taking it apart and checking there is enough heat sink compound between the LED and the heat sink. If not it will still work fine, but the life will be drastically reduced.

Looks like I just have to make my own light fittings if I want to get around 15W true power.

There is also RS Components, Element 14 (previously Farnell), and Mouser. Usually expensive, but sometimes I'm surprised. I think it is Osram that distributes an interesting propriety fitting through I think RS (can't remember details now, was a few months ago).

You can never have enough Volvos!

newbellies

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#616839 29-Apr-2012 07:05

Great thread. I too am on a quest to replace all my downlight fixtures with ICF rated ones (which i can *cover* with insulation). I want to make the jump to LED at the same time.

I found this fixture which ticks the ICF box:
http://www.homedownlights.co.nz/pdf/HD60%20Advert%20March%202012.pdf

but after contacting them, they've only tested with CFL (20W) so they can't guarantee that they will work with LEDs. They expressed concern that some LEDs might get too hot. They suggested that I contact the bulb manufacturers to find out if the bulbs support ICF setups. Those HD60 fixtures have a mechanism which makes them just turn off if they get too hot.

Btw, I've heard great things about this award winning philips bulb:
http://www.electricaldirectltd.co.nz/ecommerce.php?func=14&DCI=62&DPT=p&DPI=3635&S=edc6258baa6505b3185d6b17c5c67f81

But these bulbs sound light they might be nicer, supporting 'warmer' light as you dim them:
http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/lamps/led-lighting-systems/led-lamps/master-ledlamps-dimtone/61147/cat/

Anybody have experience with either of these bulbs?

timmmay

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#616881 29-Apr-2012 10:44

What do they cost? Personally I wouldn't risk losing your insurance by putting non-standard bulbs in a light fitting.

The FOZZ fittings with bulbs are about $80 each, from memory. I put them in my office as the ceiling is too narrow to take anything else. Everywhere else I just took out the downlights, covered the holes, and put nice lights on the ceiling.

newbellies

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#616890 29-Apr-2012 11:09

>>
What do they cost? Personally I wouldn't risk losing your insurance by putting non-standard bulbs in a light fitting.

The FOZZ fittings with bulbs are about $80 each, from memory. I put them in my office as the ceiling is too narrow to take anything else. Everywhere else I just took out the downlights, covered the holes, and put nice lights on the ceiling. >>

I believe it's $33+ without bulb. No arguments here about avoiding unsafe configurations. I'm still looking for an officially tested fixture that will let me cover LED capable fixtures. So far I've only seen LED fixtures (in NZ) that let you insulate up to, not over. I'm also thinking if I'm going to spend all this money, i might as well make it dimmer capable. (and those temperature changing, Philips DimTone bulbs sound great for that)

Do the fozz fittings let you cover them with insulation?

timmmay

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#616896 29-Apr-2012 11:46

Yes, Fozz are made to let you cover them with insulation, that's why they're so expensive. They're pretty slow to turn on, they come on realllllly dim for a few seconds, then "pop" up to something more reasonable, then heat up over the next 30 seconds to full brightness. They're not super bright, but I have four in a small to moderate sized office and they're fine.

Niel

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#616970 29-Apr-2012 14:05

IC means insulation covered, and F means it is also fire rated. You do not need fire rated fittings. Standard fittings can already survive a flaming bulb and insulation is considered non-flammable.

We have Home down lights in our new house. Look the same as the ones NewBellies found, but upright normal fittings that cannot be covered and takes incandescent bulbs. My issue with Home is the cutout is not a standard size. Most fittings are 100mm, 120mm, or 135mm (or imperial equivalents). The Home fittings are 125mm (there are some others also, but they are pushing 125mm). So you are stuck with them.

I also do not like special lamps, but do understand the reason is so that you cannot (accidentally) use say a 100W bulb in a fitting not rated for it.

The special device is simply a thermal fuse and they cost very little. But if you fit it yourself then it is still not certified. IC requirements are very easy to meet if you have control over the energy dissipated, but if you design it yourself it is still not certified.

The reason why fittings need to comply to various standards but there is little attention paid to bulbs is because (as mentioned above) fittings are already tested to resist flaming for a short time and it is expected a flaming bulb will not burn for long.

Regarding the 9W LED bulb I got off eBay (see a previous post) but is actually consuming 5.5W so probably 5W power to the LED, I've had a few e-mails with the seller and in the end he said it is 3x 3W LEDs = 9W LEDs but it is not driven with 9W (as I already knew). So effectively I have a statement from the seller that he is misleading buyers. I'm sure he is not the only one doing it. I'm still happy with it, no issues with the quality, and the light is appropriate for what I wanted it for. However now I'll probably go ahead and make my own bulbs running at low voltage DC so the mains risk is removed from the equation (for insurance purposes). I'm looking at 15W - 20W COB LEDs and under driving them at 10W. This reduces the heat sink requirements and extends the life of the LED. (I'll get the photos of the "9W" bulb performance uploaded sometime.)

You can never have enough Volvos!

mattwnz

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#616973 29-Apr-2012 14:33

Jimmy22: Got two 50w and a 100w? Flood light from these guys yesterday..? pretty sure that would be bright enough for everyone...? http://www.ledsunlimited.co.nz?

How do they compare with the ones you can get one dealextreme.com, which do a huge number of LED bulbs? There seem to be so many LED lightbulb websites popping up now, possibly they have good margins.

Just looking at the amount of light thy produce. A some of their LED halogen replacements produce 120Lumins of light, while a conventional 50W halogen produces around 1000 lumins. So they don't appear to be up there yet.

timmmay

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#616979 29-Apr-2012 14:55

Niel: However now I'll probably go ahead and make my own bulbs running at low voltage DC so the mains risk is removed from the equation (for insurance purposes).

I'd still be careful. If a fire happens (unlikely I know) and the insurer asks "what were they", no matter what you say they'll hear "something the home owner messed with when they shouldn't have".

I understand that people want light without seeing light fittings, but I've found light fittings on my ceilings, admittedly high ceilings, perfectly fine. My girlfriend chose a nice retro one for the bedroom that looks great, and matches the bedside lamps she chose, and I got nice, simple, classy ones for the lounge, kitchen, and hall from a hardware store for $30 each.

Niel

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#617025 29-Apr-2012 17:14

A nice accessory for the standard Home recessed light fittings is they do have a lens available (clear or frosted) that clips on from below to stop any draft/dust between the ceiling and interior. And the fittings themselves are really cheap.

The lights on Deal Extreme are the same ones on eBay (or the other way round). Don't trust specs from either. For indication only. When CFL became popular there were complaints from Philips as they were forced to comply with strict EMC/EMI requirements while cheap Chinese lights were imported with the labelling but not the compliance. And it was so much easier for authorities to go after Philips than after the Chinese manufacturers who simply change the label to import it as a different product. So if you want a quality lamp then buy known European brands and expect to see lower specifications than the Chinese variants. Other brand names are Virbatim, Osram, etc.

Buying LEDs in NZ you can expect to pay a premium. NZ is big in our own eyes, but we are a tiny market and it cost money to get a new product into the market. Would love to see someone do a group buy and import some quality LEDs, hope we find some.

My idea for making an LED lamp is to use the existing fitting with no modification, just fill the bulb space with a heat sink and COB LED. Low voltage wiring would go to the E27 socket, and an approved power supply would go inside the light switch. The light fitting will be unmodified, and there are essentially no requirements for the "bulb". In the regulations is space for low volume non-commercial devices as long as it is designed with sound engineering principals and complies with the intent on standards. And this will also fall within what is allowed by the electrical wiring code (or not disallowed).

The whole reason for IC requirement in residential (only) is because people e.g. fit whatever light bulb they want not knowing a 100W bulb gets too hot for insulation, or DIY insulation not knowing you are not supposed to cover light fittings. Not such an issue for commercial installations where professionals are normally used.

By the way, in submarines (before LED lights) all light bulbs were 40W max and only incandescent. 40W because that is the maximum that will not set fire to an oily rag, and incandescent because in a sealed submarine you do not want mercury or fine glass from a broken FL. (My first job was at a company doing research for the South African navy.)

You can never have enough Volvos!

mattwnz

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#617036 29-Apr-2012 17:41

Niel: A nice accessory for the standard Home recessed light fittings is they do have a lens available (clear or frosted) that clips on from below to stop any draft/dust between the ceiling and interior. And the fittings themselves are really cheap.

The lights on Deal Extreme are the same ones on eBay (or the other way round). Don't trust specs from either. For indication only.

With the deal extreme ones I would only trust ones that have lots of positive reviews. But it is true that you don't know if they will meet NZ safety standards. But you do see a lot of cheap chinese incandescent and halogen bulbs in some of these lighting shops, and I have found they have a very poor life, compared to osram, philips, and GE. Some only last a few eeks before they blow, and they seem to fail around the joints, where the glass detaches from the fitting of the bulb.

Morgenmuffel

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#617055 29-Apr-2012 19:12

Has anyone tried the cheapie LED bulbs that they are selling at Bunnings,

ViriBright
360lm
5w (40w equiv)
Cool White

I have 2 in my hallway and they are OK, definitely cool white though

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