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# 138490 6-Jan-2014 22:10
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Flip-pin heck, flip-pen hopeless! After getting hooked up to flip for our holiday apartment, we tried with 3 different computers to get a connection and spent an hour on the help-line, to no avail. Apparently this was not enough effort on our behalf for them to agree that their product did not work and it was all because our computer was at fault! Not only would they not refund our payment, but they waited until 3 minutes after our next payment had been taken by direct debit, to cancel our account. We did finally get a refund for our second month, once we made an official complaint, but they refused to refund the first month “because we had not given them enough opportunity to make things work”. Flip FLOP!

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  # 962199 6-Jan-2014 22:14
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Weird. I always assumed ISPs don't charge you until they see traffic flowing on your account.

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  # 962201 6-Jan-2014 22:16
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NonprayingMantis: Weird. I always assumed ISPs don't charge you until they see traffic flowing on your account.


Really?


 
 
 
 


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  # 962217 6-Jan-2014 22:31
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johnr:
NonprayingMantis: Weird. I always assumed ISPs don't charge you until they see traffic flowing on your account.


Really?

i haven't given it a lot of thought admittedly, but seems like the right thing to do, otherwise you end up with situations like this, where the customer has no connectivity, but is still being charged for a service they are not getting.

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  # 962219 6-Jan-2014 22:36
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What happens if the issue is on the customers side? One still has to pay Chorus for the line

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  # 962220 6-Jan-2014 22:39
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NonprayingMantis: Weird. I always assumed ISPs don't charge you until they see traffic flowing on your account.


this is kinda how snaps was managed when we were first connected, simply had to call in and get them to flick the switch.




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Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.


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  # 962223 6-Jan-2014 22:43
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NonprayingMantis:
johnr:
NonprayingMantis: Weird. I always assumed ISPs don't charge you until they see traffic flowing on your account.


Really?

i haven't given it a lot of thought admittedly, but seems like the right thing to do, otherwise you end up with situations like this, where the customer has no connectivity, but is still being charged for a service they are not getting.


The ISP gets charged wholesale rates from day 1, just because the port isn't passing traffic doesn't mean the provisioning work hasn't been done either.


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  # 962228 6-Jan-2014 23:00
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johnr: What happens if the issue is on the customers side? One still has to pay Chorus for the line


Then I guess it would be in the ISPs interest to ensure problems get fixed ASAP.

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  # 962244 6-Jan-2014 23:04
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NonprayingMantis:
johnr: What happens if the issue is on the customers side? One still has to pay Chorus for the line


Then I guess it would be in the ISPs interest to ensure problems get fixed ASAP.


If a car refuses to start is it up to the local petrol station to get the car working?

Maybe if my Macbook pro dies this evening my ISP at home will buy me a new one so I can get connected again

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  # 962247 6-Jan-2014 23:11
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johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr: What happens if the issue is on the customers side? One still has to pay Chorus for the line


Then I guess it would be in the ISPs interest to ensure problems get fixed ASAP.


If a car refuses to start is it up to the local petrol station to get the car working?

Maybe if my Macbook pro dies this evening my ISP at home will buy me a new one so I can get connected again


I don't follow the analogy.

Seems more like the petrol station isn't managing to pump petrol into the car at all. Should they still charge you if you can't get petrol?

Eta: you already have a working internet connection. So not sure what the MacBook Pro thing is about.

Just so I am clear, I am talking about the initial charge, not ongoing billing. The initial provisioning of a connection is the place most likely to have a chorus/ISP stuff up where the customer might not get connected on the day they were told, or the modem from the ISP might be DOA.

The ISP should not issue their first bill, IMO, until they see some traffic flowing over the connection so they know it is working properly. (I believe Just the modem connecting would do this, no need for a MacBook etc)

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  # 962250 6-Jan-2014 23:15
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As above if issue is on customers side

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  # 962252 6-Jan-2014 23:18
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johnr: As above if issue is on customers side


Like they forgot to plug their modem in or something?

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# 962253 6-Jan-2014 23:20
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NonprayingMantis:
johnr: As above if issue is on customers side


Like they forgot to plug their modem in or something?


Yeah that's the one, MacBook pro dies cause modem not plugged into wall as customer thought it was wireless

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  # 962254 6-Jan-2014 23:30
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johnr:
NonprayingMantis:
johnr: As above if issue is on customers side


Like they forgot to plug their modem in or something?


Yeah that's the one, MacBook pro dies cause modem not plugged into wall as customer thought it was wireless
I'm sure there will be times where the problem is on the customer side and cannot be resolved immediately with a support ticket, and so the ISP could legitimately charge the customer even though no traffic is flowing.

But..... I'd be surprised if the chorus costs for UBA (less than $1 day?) for those occasions outweighed the cost to the ISP of processing the pro rated refunds for the times when the issue is not on the customer side.
Just taking the call requesting the refund is going to cost probably $10-$20.

How often would you say the problem that stops any traffic flowing is on the customer side, rather than the ISP or chorus side(including any modem provided by the ISP)?

If the modem plugs in, connects, then some traffic will flow, regardless of whether a MacBook or other device is connecting to it pr not.

In the case of flip, they don't provide a modem, so modem issues would be a customer problem rathe than ISP problem, but most ISPs do provide a modem.

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  # 962322 7-Jan-2014 09:36
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Sorry been on holiday, would have responded sooner.

We do have a policy of refunding customers if their service doesn't work - assuming full troubleshooting has been completed.

'full' troubleshooting is required because of not only the on-going Chorus charges, but the actual installation costs. Also we have no way of knowing where the fault lies, but even if it is the customer's side, we'll refund the period without service.

Really important to get the to the bottom of the problem so simply moving providers again doesn't always solve the issue. And it's very rarely a faster solution.

So our goal is to get our customers connected, and as many of you know, this sometimes is a drawn out process that requires testing many steps along the way.

If we simply refunded before everything could be tested then it would be very costly to us, and the customer experience would be far poorer.

However I do appreciate your situation is not ideal Sharee - message me your account details and I can look into it further.

Happy to answer any further questions on the topic.




flip.co.nz

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