Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | ... | 210
42 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 869430 31-Jul-2013 18:04
Send private message

Dororke: I can only think your footage Richard was perhaps adapted down. I don't pretend the clip is perfect but I wouldn't say it's terrible. The best descriptive word I can come up with is adequate.

As to the pitch looking terrible well in my feed I can see exactly why. It's. because the pitch is in a terrible state. Huge divots everywhere and heaps of sand thrown down to try and cover up the huge patches where grass has been cut up. I can see this clearly on my 50" plasma as clear as I can see the individual raindrops during what must have been a severe weather event.

Might it be you're not seeing it as good as it can be perhaps. A good test would be to watch some NFL replays and fix the setting to 3Mbps. Now compare that to the EPL clip. Is it similar? If not it could indicate that your feed might be being adapted down and not showing at the best available. Just a thought.


I have just uploaded a clip to youtube which shows how it looks on my TV. The start of the video shows MySKY HD - then I jump to the test stream.

I will admit - the closeup shots of players are almost acceptable (though not even close to HD) BUT we do not watch football in closeup shots. Most of the footage in a game is one camera panning left to right and this is where the stream is "terrible".

Unfortunately the sample video provided does not really show any football at all..... But in the youtube clip I posted it shows them walking on to the field and you can see how blocky the picture is. Even when you see the crowd in the stands the facial definition is poor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkP0vTdhb2A#at=10

It defaults to 360p - so if you have a fast connection hit the cog icon along the bottom and change it to 1080p and then hit full screen.

Hopefully there are no legal problems in posting this footage - if there is someone please let me know and I will take it down.



1445 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152

Subscriber

  Reply # 869448 31-Jul-2013 18:23
Send private message

So I've just tried the 3mpbs link and run it full screen at 1080p through Media player. Absolutely shocking quality. When the players walk on to the pitch, you can see the pixilation on the grass, the blockyness of the shadows. It's almost like they've encoded it really badly, yet its still 3mpbs. Unless they get the stream to a higher bit rate, playing it on your HD TV will be like watching an SD stream in my opinion.

RichardGNZ, mine looked similar to what you've posted on youtube.

chris

229 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869460 31-Jul-2013 18:30
Send private message

Benoire: So I've just tried the 3mpbs link and run it full screen at 1080p through Media player. Absolutely shocking quality. When the players walk on to the pitch, you can see the pixilation on the grass, the blockyness of the shadows. It's almost like they've encoded it really badly, yet its still 3mpbs. Unless they get the stream to a higher bit rate, playing it on your HD TV will be like watching an SD stream in my opinion.

RichardGNZ, mine looked similar to what you've posted on youtube.

chris


Have you checked out the NFL Gamepass stream Beniore? I checked out their 3000kbps option and it is substantially better than the Premier League Pass preview video, despite being the same bit rate. 

1445 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152

Subscriber

  Reply # 869464 31-Jul-2013 18:37
Send private message

@expression

Still not what I'm used to either here in NZ or my many years in the UK (had Sky HD from about 2006 onwards). However, at 4500 it is a vast improvement but again at 1080p still blocky around the edges and lack of clarity in places.

94 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869469 31-Jul-2013 18:42
Send private message

Yikes - I see what you mean Richard - that video clip of the EPL clip is quite terrible and I have to say mine is better than that, though as already stated not perfect just adequate. I can see why you might be put off from signing up if that is the quality you can expect. If it's not the adapted rate I can't think what else might be causing your footage to be inferior to mine. Can you try something for me and tell me what speed you get from speedtest.net to a NY server. Here's mine for comparison.

Anyone else got any ideas?

1445 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152

Subscriber

  Reply # 869474 31-Jul-2013 18:47
Send private message

Dororke,

Mine looks the same as Richards on my 51" Samsung Plasma 1080p Smart TV.

Here is my speedtest for comparison: https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/2871207375

EDIT:  Both the link from this thread to the 3mpbs OR the preview button on the website looks the same as each other... No difference in the quality.

42 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 869478 31-Jul-2013 18:53
Send private message

Dororke: Yikes - I see what you mean Richard - that video clip of the EPL clip is quite terrible and I have to say mine is better than that, though as already stated not perfect just adequate. I can see why you might be put off from signing up if that is the quality you can expect. If it's not the adapted rate I can't think what else might be causing your footage to be inferior to mine. Can you try something for me and tell me what speed you get from speedtest.net to a NY server. Here's mine for comparison.

Anyone else got any ideas?


Here are my results to a NY server ... https://www.speedtest.net/my-result/2871213739

Download: 44.41 MBPS
Uploads: 19.38 MBPS

If I do the same test to NZ servers I download at 94 MBPS

94 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869508 31-Jul-2013 19:13
Send private message

Well I'm officially stumped. Both of you have better downloads that mine so that would kind of rule out the adaptive thingy. Wireless, HDMI leads or the TV perhaps???

dwl

363 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 43


  Reply # 869509 31-Jul-2013 19:15
Send private message

Dororke: Does anyone know if these feeds are going to be served from NY like the NFL and other channels are?

If so then the bandwidth tests for streaming need to choose NY based servers. Is that right?

I think the following is right but anyone who has more correct info, please feel free to update:

This service, as does NFL Game Pass, uses a CDN (Akamai) supported by Neulion which has the content on local NZ servers.  When a stream is requested with the URLs that have been posted it gets directed to servers with the actual content.  In my case I predominantly see nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com and if I ping that on Telecom ADSL it returns 219.88.187.16 only 42ms away (e.g. probably in my city) but I would expect different answers, and hence different local servers for different users, around the country and on different ISPs. Most of my mp4 segments, especially if running the highest 3000 rate, are served from that local server.

Some of the segments are requested from a different server at nlds119.cdnl3nl.neulion.com which resolves to 4.27.23.126 which is over 200ms away somewhere in the US (beyond San Jose).  Every 30 seconds there are reports posted back by my browser of the count of packets used between these two servers and the numbers of lost packets.  I expect that the US based service is there for resiliency and hopefully the local servers can take most of the load.  When my browser asks for a US sourced packet there is a higher failure rate which more often results in retransmission of that segment (no great surprise on a Telecom ADSL service at this time of night wanting 3M from the US) which was the got from the local server.

The IP address returned for each request can also vary:

nlds119.cdnl3nl.neulion.com. 1840 IN CNAME cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net.
cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net. 230 IN A 8.27.254.126
cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net. 230 IN A 4.27.23.126

nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com. 795 IN CNAME nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com.edgesuite.net.
nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com.edgesuite.net. 7790 IN CNAME a1702.g2.akamai.net.
a1702.g2.akamai.net. 20 IN A 219.88.187.16
a1702.g2.akamai.net. 20 IN A 219.88.187.10

CDNs are now very widely used and are quite a mature technology.  There were suggestions in this forum thread that Akamai isn't the only one and why don't they try another or perhaps place their own servers.  Akamai claim to have over 300 servers in NZ according to their iPad app and I would guess there should be reasonable service and high rate streams fairly readily available.  As we move out to rural users I doubt they will be so lucky as the 5M for RBI might not be enough to sustain a 3000 stream.

The encoding of the content is a critical task and may be the limiting factor if the stream can be sustained at 3000 and NFL looks better.  Hope this helps.


1445 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152

Subscriber

  Reply # 869514 31-Jul-2013 19:17
Send private message

Full 1gbps wired Ethernet (2 sockets per room), small lengths of HDMI cable (moved PC to lounge to test it), PC is an Intel core i5 etc. TV is less than 2 months old, displays iPlayer at high res fine, along with the NFL game pass at 4500 'ok', local streaming from TVNZ is acceptable for general watching. It is simply the content... It is rubbish!

229 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869516 31-Jul-2013 19:20
Send private message

Benoire: Full 1gbps wired Ethernet (2 sockets per room), small lengths of HDMI cable (moved PC to lounge to test it), PC is an Intel core i5 etc. TV is less than 2 months old, displays iPlayer at high res fine, along with the NFL game pass at 4500 'ok', local streaming from TVNZ is acceptable for general watching. It is simply the content... It is rubbish!


Indeed. They're not encoding this properly. That however is relatively easy to fix, hopefully in time for the beginning of the season (if they notice that there is a problem).

42 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 869517 31-Jul-2013 19:21
Send private message

Dororke: Well I'm officially stumped. Both of you have better downloads that mine so that would kind of rule out the adaptive thingy. Wireless, HDMI leads or the TV perhaps???


My PC is next to the tv and is configured via HDMI. Bluerays through the same config look amazing.

The TV is a 55" Samsung LED UA55ES7100

94 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869529 31-Jul-2013 19:47
Send private message

dwl:
Dororke: Does anyone know if these feeds are going to be served from NY like the NFL and other channels are?

If so then the bandwidth tests for streaming need to choose NY based servers. Is that right?

I think the following is right but anyone who has more correct info, please feel free to update:

This service, as does NFL Game Pass, uses a CDN (Akamai) supported by Neulion which has the content on local NZ servers.  When a stream is requested with the URLs that have been posted it gets directed to servers with the actual content.  In my case I predominantly see nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com and if I ping that on Telecom ADSL it returns 219.88.187.16 only 42ms away (e.g. probably in my city) but I would expect different answers, and hence different local servers for different users, around the country and on different ISPs. Most of my mp4 segments, especially if running the highest 3000 rate, are served from that local server.

Some of the segments are requested from a different server at nlds119.cdnl3nl.neulion.com which resolves to 4.27.23.126 which is over 200ms away somewhere in the US (beyond San Jose).  Every 30 seconds there are reports posted back by my browser of the count of packets used between these two servers and the numbers of lost packets.  I expect that the US based service is there for resiliency and hopefully the local servers can take most of the load.  When my browser asks for a US sourced packet there is a higher failure rate which more often results in retransmission of that segment (no great surprise on a Telecom ADSL service at this time of night wanting 3M from the US) which was the got from the local server.

The IP address returned for each request can also vary:

nlds119.cdnl3nl.neulion.com. 1840 IN CNAME cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net.
cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net. 230 IN A 8.27.254.126
cdnl3nl.neulion.com.c.footprint.net. 230 IN A 4.27.23.126

nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com. 795 IN CNAME nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com.edgesuite.net.
nlds119.cdnak.neulion.com.edgesuite.net. 7790 IN CNAME a1702.g2.akamai.net.
a1702.g2.akamai.net. 20 IN A 219.88.187.16
a1702.g2.akamai.net. 20 IN A 219.88.187.10

CDNs are now very widely used and are quite a mature technology.  There were suggestions in this forum thread that Akamai isn't the only one and why don't they try another or perhaps place their own servers.  Akamai claim to have over 300 servers in NZ according to their iPad app and I would guess there should be reasonable service and high rate streams fairly readily available.  As we move out to rural users I doubt they will be so lucky as the 5M for RBI might not be enough to sustain a 3000 stream.

The encoding of the content is a critical task and may be the limiting factor if the stream can be sustained at 3000 and NFL looks better.  Hope this helps.



Wow - terrific answer thanks. Can't possibly argue that cos I don't understand most of it. But it does answer my primary question in that the content is mostly served (logically) from NZ servers and not NY, or London or any other far away place. So no bottlenecks are likely through the southern cross fibre link. I just had this mad image of 10,000 ex pat poms all trying to access content at the same time across the oceans.

Just out of curiousity DWL, do you know how the live feed make its way (i.e. the digital route it takes) from the UK football grounds to these NZ Akamai servers? Presumably there's a time lag of sorts that could be measured thus that live is actually live + n milliseconds or something. Although I guess it's all relative anyway.

94 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 12


  Reply # 869545 31-Jul-2013 20:14
Send private message

richardgnz:
Dororke: Well I'm officially stumped. Both of you have better downloads that mine so that would kind of rule out the adaptive thingy. Wireless, HDMI leads or the TV perhaps???


My PC is next to the tv and is configured via HDMI. Bluerays through the same config look amazing.

The TV is a 55" Samsung LED UA55ES7100


I just don't know. Everything about your set up is better than mine and yet what I see is much improved over that youTube video you posted.

You're welcome to come around to my place when Spurs beat... err play Arsenal.

dwl

363 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 43


  Reply # 869559 31-Jul-2013 20:47
Send private message

Dororke: Just out of curiousity DWL, do you know how the live feed make its way (i.e. the digital route it takes) from the UK football grounds to these NZ Akamai servers? Presumably there's a time lag of sorts that could be measured thus that live is actually live + n milliseconds or something. Although I guess it's all relative anyway.

Now this is getting trickier and I am doing more guessing here.  As before, others will know more than me and might wish to correct or clarify.  In terms of network delivery I would expect an IP stream from the source end but it is possible it is taken as video part way (say to the US?) and then encoded, before distribution through the CDN.  The provider will know.  Either should have similar delay. The exact path taken is not very important and could well change over time anyway.

Regarding time delay, with the VOD stream I see it start quickly and the segments (2 second mp4 files) are initially coming in faster than they are needed (as you are used to with youtube) and if it wants to rate change or needs retransmission due to lost files there is a buffer of data stored which seems to be many seconds worth and you shouldn't get any freezing if the algorithms work well.  At the end of the clip you will see network activity stop well before the video stops playing.

I have only looked at the demo and don't know how the live will be delivered.  For live streams the content first has to be encoded and distributed to the servers.  The transit time from the UK is still small and the encode and transfer to NZ could still be within 1 second, perhaps a bit more if using satellite distribution or allowing for the CDN process.  If it is still packaged into these 2 second files we are starting to see potential additional delays if it waits for the segment to download or it might stream during download.

However, if there is one lost segment we don't really want freezing if by delaying the stream slightly we can make it much more smooth and resilient.  Ideally there should be several segments stored to allow for rate adaption and loss recovery to work well without the viewer noticing.  I would imagine there will be multiple seconds of overall delay but this should only be noticed if you have a parallel live feed with lower delay (radio or on-line).  

I don't want to start another round of anguish over the change from Sky HD to the Coliseum service but I think it is a reasonable question as to how much delay is added to the live feed.  In these days of many different forms of content delivery it could be annoying if someone yells from the other room about a goal they saw on their live scoring app and it is just being set up on the video stream.  The related question then is how much delay was there on a Sky HD feed and how much more behind (or less likely ahead) would this service be.  I guess time will tell.

1 | ... | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | ... | 210
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic

Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.