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70 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1508398 8-Mar-2016 19:27
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tdgeek:

 

charliebrownnz:

 

sbiddle:

 

I think the supermarket analogy is very relevant - but not in the way any of you are actually discussing.

 

Food products do have geographic restrictions - companies such as Nestle sell products globally, with many made in only a small number of countries. Products a for different markets have different recipes, tastes and different labeling requirements in different markets. All of these are ultimately geographic restrictions to restrict product to specific markets. Here in NZ we're one of a small number of countries in the world where parallel importing is legal, so we've been exposed to many such products. Some companies do a good job of this (such as labeling products to comply with FSANZ requirements) and some do a poor job.

 

So where does this lead?

 

A certain supermarket chain in NZ did start to import some products from their parent in Australia to test the water, bypassing the local distributor of products. I won't go into naming brands or products here but it's safe to say a few big brands were involved. The attitude was simply that they could source stock cheaper in AU than they could in NZ, so they'd simply import it to force the local distributor to cut prices. Meanwhile they're expecting the NZ distributor to still fund promotions, merchandising and so on.

 

The supermarket business is different to TV - you're selling physical goods that can't be delivered digitally, but at the end of the day the geographic distribution models are similar. I'm all for open markets and free trade and this is one of the reasons I fundamentally refuse to buy fair trade products as it's nothing but a subsidy to fund growers who continue to flood markets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The geographic distribution models are similar in the context of a checkout in a supermarket charging extra to the person that lives in a town down the road solely because they live in a different address. No extra costs are incurred by selling to the person down the road, its just they charge more because they can. The context you are referring to is a case where geographic borders matter due to a tangible cost of physically moving a product - content has no such cost.

 

In fact, the supermarket analogy would be more accurate if you have separate checkout lanes in a physical store for "out of towners" - in these lanes a sub-contractor clips the ticket, and they only sell apples and oranges (of which you can't buy only one), if you want bananas you have to go through another check-out lane and buy off another sub-contractor who bundles in and charges for toiletries as well. And if you want bagels you are out of luck as none of the sub-contractors stock them (even though the store does). Sometimes the store won't contain the product you want, however it provides most, and it provides more products than the sum of all the sub-contractors.

 

The internet does not have borders, it is a global market, and trying to introduce geographic borders on the internet is as absurd as a supermarket store charging more for people that walk in the store based on the street they live on.

 

 

 

 

Prices in AKL are the sane for Auckland's and Hamiltonians shopping there. Anyone shopping in Hamilton or some teeny backwater will have different prices as there are different costs.

 

Internet does have a border. Series sells to NF US, but in NZ someone else bought it, as they did in Sweden and Kazakstan. But you don't want Netflix t pay the extra for those rights for you, you want to bypass it for free. Maybe you should petition to ban anyone from buys content except Netflix. But as NF makes a teeny % of net profit at the moment, expect to pay a lot more as you want NF content for free, but it costs, as at the moment, what you cannot watch on NF NZ, someone else bought it, or there is a deal with another for a near future release. But you want it now and for free.

 

 

 

 

But they will not have different prices when they shop in the same store - hence geoblocking is as ridiculous as having separate supermarket checkouts for people that live in different towns, suburbs or even streets. The internet does not have a border, there is literally no physical distribution involved - that is why I can buy electronic content from the US and have it available instantly at no extra cost to the content provider. Charging extra based on geography is as absurd and as arbitrary as charging extra for an Asian person to watch content and charging less for a Maori to watch content, and having special discounts for Christians. I will say it again, segmenting electronic content that can be delivered on the internet based on where you live is stupid and unethical.

 

And the reason why local attractions often charge tourists more is silly as well but it can somewhat be justified by the fact that locals already pay for it via rates (which is also silly). But those local attractions wouldn't be able to charge you more or less based on which side of the street you live in - which is similar to what content providers are trying to do.


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  Reply # 1508399 8-Mar-2016 19:27
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Greedy? Check Netflix earnings results. Their recent profit is a minuscule % of the costs they bear, which are clearly mainly content costs. If they buy up every countries rights, they will fold. If they did that and doubled the sub, then they will be classed as greedy. To be greedy you need to be tuning a cash cow. Netflix isn't that. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is accusing Netflix of being greedy. For the record, though, a Netflix with a global monopoly would be worse than the current situation. We don't need one provider with everything. We need all providers with everything.





iPad Air + iPhone SE + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1508408 8-Mar-2016 19:32
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Greedy? Check Netflix earnings results. Their recent profit is a minuscule % of the costs they bear, which are clearly mainly content costs. If they buy up every countries rights, they will fold. If they did that and doubled the sub, then they will be classed as greedy. To be greedy you need to be tuning a cash cow. Netflix isn't that. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is accusing Netflix of being greedy. For the record, though, a Netflix with a global monopoly would be worse than the current situation. We don't need one provider with everything. We need all providers with everything.

 

 

 

 

I agree there, but a netflix monopoly is probably better than the current regional monopolies - if they became a monopoly and abused it too much they would get a hammering from the large regulatory bodies overseas and piracy would become rampant again. Exclusivity is what needs to go - but one battle at a time - and as it stands, I'm very happy with what Netflix offers and am very happy to continue paying them for that level of service I receive.


BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 1508467 8-Mar-2016 20:50
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zespri:

 

freitasm:

 

Please, for the love of $deity do not use Hola. You rather have your connection compromised than let it go?

 

 

So what's wrong with hola? Is it a service swindling their customers globally? Or just poor security?

 

 

Hola was caught selling users' bandwidth to bad people, spammers, scammers, malware distribution and other botnets in general.

 

Do you really want this crap in your network?





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  Reply # 1510468 10-Mar-2016 11:45
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Worth reading this, which indicates the govt (edit:) may be planning on cracking down on geo-unblocking of content like Netflix, as a result of needing to meet their obligations under the TPPA:

 

Watching US Netflix looks set to become an offence

 

Getting around blocks on overseas online television services such as the United States version of Netflix looks set to become an offence.

 

Commerce Minister Paul Goldsmith said the Government needed to change intellectual property laws to fulfil the country's obligations under the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement.

 

A discussion paper released by Goldsmith proposed that people would continue to be allowed to circumvent "geo-blocks" on physical items, for example regional blocks on DVDs.

 

But the discussion paper proposes no similar exemption for digital services, such as online television services.

 

Goldsmith said that if people were accessing foreign content in a way that did not breach copyright, then that would not be an offence. Further comment has been sort from him on the impact of the proposal. 

 

The Government had previously been unclear on whether the copyright provisions of the TPPA might force it to restrict access to services such as the US version of Netflix.   

 

The TPPA allows signatories to maintain exemptions they already have in place for cracking so-called "technological protection measures", which in New Zealand's case includes regional blocks on DVDs. 

 

But the legal status of cracking locks on overseas online services had been a grey area, meaning the Government's ability to grant an exemption for accessing overseas online services had been in doubt.

 

The discussion paper said New Zealand had to provide stronger protection to "digital locks" that protect copyright works. 

 

Breaking digital locks on copyright works would be a civil offence, unless it was for  "commercial gain or advantage", it which case it would be criminal.

 

The Ministry of Business Innovation and Employment is inviting submissions on the proposals by March 30.

 

More to come

 

 

 

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/77736958/watching-us-netflix-looks-set-to-become-an-offence


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  Reply # 1510484 10-Mar-2016 11:58
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So the Government is cool with people parallel importing content on physical media, but not when doing so via digital channels. Why the double-standard?

 

One theory may be that large corporate interests would be negatively affected if they banned the former, as they sell a lot of parallel imported media. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1510485 10-Mar-2016 12:00
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"Breaking digital locks on copyright works would be a civil offence, unless it was for  "commercial gain or advantage", it which case it would be criminal."

 

That makes sense

 

 

 

End of the day, its breaking the T+C's. Dont blame Netflix, or the Govt or the TPPA, blame the owners of the content, and its really up to them how they sell that content.  Competition will settle the market.


mdf

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  Reply # 1510487 10-Mar-2016 12:03
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Interesting! The full consultation paper is available here. MBIE seems a bit confused in places (the difference between "access" to a copyright work and "infringing" a copyright work didn't really make sense to me), but the gist of it seems to be that circumventing "technological protection measures"/DRM will be illegal - you can be sued for circumventing TPM/DRM, and criminally prosecuted if you do it for commercial purposes.

 

There are then a number of carve outs or exceptions. One is for geo-unblocking, but only for physical objects (i.e. DVDs). For interest, other proposed exceptions include jailbreaking, network unlocking, ensuring personal privacy on the internet (e.g. uninstalling spyware), and (drumroll) enabling gamers to run private servers when the official servers have been shut down.

 

Remember - these are all just proposals for now, not new law (yet).

 

Which does of course imply that if the law needs to be changed to stop geo-unblocking Netflix, then the current law doesn't prohibit geo-unblocking.


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  Reply # 1510488 10-Mar-2016 12:04
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jonathan18:

 

Worth reading this, which indicates the govt (edit:) may be planning on cracking down on geo-unblocking of content like Netflix, as a result of needing to meet their obligations under the TPPA:

 

Talk about cr#p reporting, the article's title doesn't even match the content a few lines down...

 

Watching US Netflix looks set to become an offence

 

Goldsmith said that if people were accessing foreign content in a way that did not breach copyright, then that would not be an offence. Further comment has been sort from him on the impact of the proposal. 

 

Using a VPN to access US netflix does not breach copyright, it just violates T+C

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1510489 10-Mar-2016 12:04
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dclegg:

 

So the Government is cool with people parallel importing content on physical media, but not when doing so via digital channels. Why the double-standard?

 

One theory may be that large corporate interests would be negatively affected if they banned the former, as they sell a lot of parallel imported media. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Physical Parallel importing is legal, thats already been decided. You can import Jandals to NZ as its legal, unless the Jandall company makes a business decision not to sell to NZ

 

Importing digital content is legal. But if the T+C says its for US only, then its breaking T+C's, not legal, in a civil case. Simple. The seller is deciding what to digitally parallel export to you.

 

 


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  Reply # 1510492 10-Mar-2016 12:06
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wellygary:

 

jonathan18:

 

Worth reading this, which indicates the govt (edit:) may be planning on cracking down on geo-unblocking of content like Netflix, as a result of needing to meet their obligations under the TPPA:

 

Talk about cr#p reporting, the article's title doesn't even match the content a few lines down...

 

Watching US Netflix looks set to become an offence

 

Goldsmith said that if people were accessing foreign content in a way that did not breach copyright, then that would not be an offence. Further comment has been sort from him on the impact of the proposal. 

 

Using a VPN to access US netflix does not breach copyright, it just violates T+C

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either way it's a civil matter. Or does breaking the T+C's not a civil matter

 

I think the key is "just"  


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1510496 10-Mar-2016 12:08
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Update from me : So far Unotelly are generally keeping up with the attempts to block them.  I have had a few issues whereby certain titles that dont play namely a few movies and a few series but some do work - i have also had some issues accessing canada -  which i think has one of the best all round catalogues.

 

I heard an interesting anecdote about buying a product in different countries and i tend to agree. I personally wouldnt mind having only NZ /AUS netflix if the price for the service was reflected in the quality and choice of viewing.  A Mercedes costs the same if i buy it in france or germany, uk or AUS ...its the same product.  Here we are forced to pay for Mercedes but are only getting a Ford Mondeo in return.

 

I would be happy with the global catalogue at a reasonable price, i dont want multiple suppliers...i understand the competative market element but quality and longevity is what i want..

 

 

 

    

 

  


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  Reply # 1510500 10-Mar-2016 12:17
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robbon44:

 

Update from me : So far Unotelly are generally keeping up with the attempts to block them.  I have had a few issues whereby certain titles that dont play namely a few movies and a few series but some do work - i have also had some issues accessing canada -  which i think has one of the best all round catalogues.

 

I heard an interesting anecdote about buying a product in different countries and i tend to agree. I personally wouldnt mind having only NZ /AUS netflix if the price for the service was reflected in the quality and choice of viewing.  A Mercedes costs the same if i buy it in france or germany, uk or AUS ...its the same product.  Here we are forced to pay for Mercedes but are only getting a Ford Mondeo in return.

 

I would be happy with the global catalogue at a reasonable price, i dont want multiple suppliers...i understand the competative market element but quality and longevity is what i want..

 

 

 

    

 

  

 

 

 

 

I dont think you will get one supplier for everyhting, there will be multiple providers, otherwise its a monopoly. The licences that cause geo restrictions will go. Some l;icemnces expire tomorrow, some in 5 years


mdf

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  Reply # 1510501 10-Mar-2016 12:21
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robbon44:

 

 

 

I would be happy with the global catalogue at a reasonable price, i dont want multiple suppliers...i understand the competative market element but quality and longevity is what i want..

 

 

The price of a global market catalogue is potentially fraught. The English Premier League is a great example. Say EPL decided to sell direct to the global public. The price is likely to be dictated largely by English consumers, who would probably jump at the opportunity to pay around 40 quid a month for all EPL games (BSkyB currently has about two-thirds of the games for 45 quid per month). That equates to $85-ish NZ per month at today's exchange rates - which isn't that much less than the $99 Premier League Pass is charging for the _season_. While there's obviously an optimal return on price vs subscriber numbers, I could imagine New Zealand paying a whole lot more for some things with a single global catalogue.


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  Reply # 1510502 10-Mar-2016 12:26
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tdgeek:

 

dclegg:

 

So the Government is cool with people parallel importing content on physical media, but not when doing so via digital channels. Why the double-standard?

 

One theory may be that large corporate interests would be negatively affected if they banned the former, as they sell a lot of parallel imported media. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Physical Parallel importing is legal, thats already been decided. You can import Jandals to NZ as its legal, unless the Jandall company makes a business decision not to sell to NZ

 

Importing digital content is legal. But if the T+C says its for US only, then its breaking T+C's, not legal, in a civil case. Simple. The seller is deciding what to digitally parallel export to you.

 

 

 

 

I've noticed in all your posts over the past few weeks that you seem to side with big media and treat all of us who use unblocking services like we are all criminals.  Do you work for big media??





Regards,

Old3eyes


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