Netflix to crack down on unblockers

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Reply # 1510558 10-Mar-2016 13:45

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ockel:

But you're not paying a revenue stream that is being used to compensate the content creators. Netflix have already paid their price for the right to sell in the US. Others have paid the right to sell elsewhere.

All you are doing is transferring wealth to Netflix shareholders - not the content creators.

I am paying into a revenue pool that can be passed onto the content creators. The fact that this currently isn't happening highlights a weakness in their contract with their content distributer.

This is why I still maintain that parallel importing of digital content is not the same as piracy.

tdgeek

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Reply # 1510559 10-Mar-2016 13:46

dclegg:

tdgeek:

And it is the same as piracy. Torrenting is getting content that you are not eligible for. Geo unblocking is the same. That you are paying for it is not relevant, it's more a not guilty feeling. There are reasons why the owner decides not to sell it to you, right now. Target them, not NF, Govt or TPPA.

No it is not the same as piracy. If I was pirating, I'd be paying nobody. If I pay an overseas service, then I am committing to a revenue stream that can then be used to compensate the content creators.

It also highlights the discrepancy between physical and digital media. The content owner has decided that I'm not eligible to watch a disc categorised for a region that I've not been deemed to be a part of. But our government has decided that it is 100% OK for local resellers to ignore and overcome this region barrier.

I dont agree DC. If I cannot see a series as its not on I can pirate it for free. If its in NF I can geoblock and watch it, but thats against the T+C. That I pay them is not relevant. There is a reason they wont give me thats eries right here and right now, they have deals with other providers. The bottom line is it their content not ours

So we justify it and break whatever rule there is, same as piracy, same as radar detectors

old3eyes

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Reply # 1510561 10-Mar-2016 13:48

tdgeek:

dclegg:

tdgeek:

And it is the same as piracy. Torrenting is getting content that you are not eligible for. Geo unblocking is the same. That you are paying for it is not relevant, it's more a not guilty feeling. There are reasons why the owner decides not to sell it to you, right now. Target them, not NF, Govt or TPPA.

No it is not the same as piracy. If I was pirating, I'd be paying nobody. If I pay an overseas service, then I am committing to a revenue stream that can then be used to compensate the content creators.

It also highlights the discrepancy between physical and digital media. The content owner has decided that I'm not eligible to watch a disc categorised for a region that I've not been deemed to be a part of. But our government has decided that it is 100% OK for local resellers to ignore and overcome this region barrier.

I dont agree DC. If I cannot see a series as its not on I can pirate it for free. If its in NF I can geoblock and watch it, but thats against the T+C. That I pay them is not relevant. There is a reason they wont give me thats eries right here and right now, they have deals with other providers. The bottom line is it their content not ours

So we justify it and break whatever rule there is, same as piracy, same as radar detectors

The sale of radar detectors in NZ is quite legal so not good comparison. My previous comments stand..

Regards,

Old3eyes

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Reply # 1510562 10-Mar-2016 13:48

I guess my short story is, if we all said, its wrong, I know it, but Im doing it anyway, I'd be fine with that

TeaLeaf

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Reply # 1510570 10-Mar-2016 13:52

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is that article citing any legit information that the government plans to make such a law? how long would that take to put in place anyway?

my problem with all this is, if netflix really doesnt like it, why arent they just terminating the accounts they think are breaking their T&Cs? i dont understand why our government would even need a law.

dclegg

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Reply # 1510571 10-Mar-2016 13:52

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tdgeek:

I dont agree DC. If I cannot see a series as its not on I can pirate it for free. If its in NF I can geoblock and watch it, but thats against the T+C. That I pay them is not relevant. There is a reason they wont give me thats eries right here and right now, they have deals with other providers. The bottom line is it their content not ours

So we justify it and break whatever rule there is, same as piracy, same as radar detectors

This is where our moral compasses differ, I guess :-)

By pirating content, I am not making any effort to ensure the content creator is rewarded for their output. As a software developer, this is a notion that I am personally not comfortable with doing at all. Although my stance on others doing it as a form of protest has softened a little over the years.

By paying an overseas provider for content, I am contributing to a revenue pool that can be used to remunerate content creators for their output. The fact that this may not be happening due to the contractural arrangements between content providers and content distributers doesn't really concern me. The content provider could (and probably should) revisit these contracts and make them a fee based on user count, rather than a set amount.

As for your radar detector analogy... nobody's life is put at risk by me watching Game of Thrones at a fair price (except for Ned Stark's, of course).

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 1510579 10-Mar-2016 14:01

Here is what I read in the TPP:

Article 18.60: Right of Distribution Each Party shall provide to authors, performers and producers of phonograms the exclusive right to authorise or prohibit the making available to the public of the original and copies66 of their works, performances and phonograms through sale or other transfer of ownership.

So this says that it will never be possible for the government to outlaw exclusive rights deals (not that they would ever do that anyway, they're not that forward-looking).

(a) Each Party shall provide to performers and producers of phonograms the exclusive right to authorise or prohibit the broadcasting or any communication to the public of their performances or phonograms, by wire or wireless means,70,71 and the making available to the public of those performances or phonograms in such a way that members of the public may access them from a place and at a time individually chosen by them.

Geo-blocking is one of the exclusive rights a performer or producer may choose to authorise or prohibit broadcasting.

Article 18.68: Technological Protection Measures (TPMs) (81) (81) Nothing in this Agreement requires a Party to restrict the importation or domestic sale of a device that does not render effective a technological measure the only purpose of which is to control market segmentation for legitimate physical copies of a cinematographic film, and is not otherwise a violation of its law.

Geoblocking is a device whose sole purpose is to control market segmentation. On the other hand, geoblocking is in respect of streams, not physical copies, so exception (81) doesn't apply. This is your exception that allows parallel imported DVDs.

Each Party shall provide for criminal procedures and penalties to be applied if any person is found to have engaged wilfully 87 and for the purposes of commercial advantage or financial gain88 in any of the above activities.89

And therefore the TPPA could be twisted to make you criminally liable if the rights holders found a sufficiently persuasive argument as to how you gained financial gain by bypassing a geoblock. That's probably not too hard, because it could mean that instead of buying a $100 box set, you might stream a series for $15. The intent is no doubt to deal with commercial infringers, but since when has loose wording in a law not been used for unintended purposes?

Each Party shall provide that a violation of a measure implementing this Article is independent of any infringement that might occur under the Party’s law on copyright and related rights.90

You're liable even if you bypassed the geoblock to watch something you could have watched without the bypass. Which is to say, bypassing a geo-block is an offense in its own right, regardless of whether or not you would otherwise have been legally entitled to do whatever it is you're doing.

(a) each Party shall provide that any person that, without authority, and knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know, that it would induce, enable, facilitate or conceal an infringement of the copyright or related right of authors, performers or producers of phonograms: (i) knowingly96 removes or alters any RMI;

By bypassing a geo-block you are knowingly removing RMI (Rights Management Information).

It goes on. But that was as far as I read.

The government was either lying or incompetent when they said no law changes would be required on page 7, and here on page 2.

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Hammerer

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Reply # 1510580 10-Mar-2016 14:01

tdgeek:

I guess my short story is, if we all said, its wrong, I know it, but Im doing it anyway, I'd be fine with that

You won't get agreement on right and wrong. We can't even agree on what is legal even though that is much better defined.

There are a lot of people who consider restrictions on their free will or behaviour to be wrong. Plus there are people who consider that it is OK to do a wrong if they have been wronged themselves, or if they might be in future, or if someone else is being wronged.

Lias:

Things like this are why I've moved away from considering cord cutting as an option, and have simply reverted to pirating everything.

Also goes to show how hugely corrupt the TPPA process is, and how much the US and NZ governments are in the pockets of big media / big business.

robbon44

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Reply # 1510583 10-Mar-2016 14:02

the other point is (i think) that $10 of sweets in the US is very different to $10 of the same sweets in NZ.

if the catalogue in NZ is all i am allowed to watch then the price should reflect the quantity of content. At the moment Us catalogue is what maybe 3 times that of NZ ? I am still paying the same provider...

(stands back and waits for the fizz bang...)

Hammerer

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Reply # 1510589 10-Mar-2016 14:09

SaltyNZ:

(a) each Party shall provide that any person that, without authority, and knowing, or having reasonable grounds to know, that it would induce, enable, facilitate or conceal an infringement of the copyright or related right of authors, performers or producers of phonograms: (i) knowingly96 removes or alters any RMI;

By bypassing a geo-block you are knowingly removing RMI (Rights Management Information).

It looks like bypassing geo-blocking is covered here but it doesn't look like it is anything to do with removing or altering RMI because that information is with the "work, performance, or phonogram" not the recipient of the stream:

Art. 4.10(c)
“Rights management information means:
(i) information that identifies a work, performance, or phonogram; the author of the work, the performer of the performance, or the producer of the phonogram; or the owner of any right in the work, performance, or phonogram;
(ii) information about the terms and conditions of the use of the work, performance, or phonogram; or
(iii) any numbers or codes that represent such information, when any of these items is attached to a copy of the work, performance, or phonogram or appears in connection with the communication or making available of a work, performance or phonogram, to the public.”

Hammerer

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Reply # 1510594 10-Mar-2016 14:13

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robbon44:

the other point is (i think) that $10 of sweets in the US is very different to $10 of the same sweets in NZ.

if the catalogue in NZ is all i am allowed to watch then the price should reflect the quantity of content. At the moment Us catalogue is what maybe 3 times that of NZ ? I am still paying the same provider...

(stands back and waits for the fizz bang...)

I'm not sure about the "fizz bang" but I agree that prices should more closely reflect the quality of the Netflix catalogue here in New Zealand.

Rikkitic

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Reply # 1510602 10-Mar-2016 14:28

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tdgeek:

Dont get me wrong, I not in favour of geo blocking and so on, but I do see the right and wrong in most things in life, and thus, like radar detectors and piracy is wrong.

And while I may or may not have participated in such wrong things, which I have, I still know they are wrong, I don't seek justifications to make it seem ok

Jeez, it's hard to keep up with the pace of these. First, just for the record, I am a proud and happy radar detector owner. I am not a racer, never have been, have no wish to be. I have found that the radar detector (perfectly legal, by the way) has improved my driving because it is easy (at least for me) to creep over the limit and the detector has helped my driving awareness. You can believe that or not. I don't really care. My point is that people can have their own reasons for doing things. Improved road awareness means improved safety, not just now I can get away with doing 180. You are making assumptions about it that are not warranted.

Second, I strongly disagree with your other assumption that there is anything 'wrong' with geo-unblocking, or anything that needs to be excused or apologised for. What you (and many in the industry, unfortunately) see as some kind of proprietary right, I see as censorship. If you have something to sell, and I want it, and I pay for it, your ownership rights stop there. I don't care how many terms and conditions you cite, or what laws get passed. As I have already pointed out, there are plenty of bad laws in the world. That does not make them right. I answer to a higher moral authority, which is my own conscience. I know the difference between right and wrong and I know when I am in the wrong. This is not one of those times.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

Rikkitic

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Reply # 1510606 10-Mar-2016 14:32

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tdgeek:

I dont agree DC. If I cannot see a series as its not on I can pirate it for free. If its in NF I can geoblock and watch it, but thats against the T+C. That I pay them is not relevant. There is a reason they wont give me thats eries right here and right now, they have deals with other providers. The bottom line is it their content not ours

The bottom line is they have put it up for sale on the market. As soon as they do that they give up their right to bitch about who buys it.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

Rikkitic

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Reply # 1510607 10-Mar-2016 14:34

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tdgeek:

I guess my short story is, if we all said, its wrong, I know it, but Im doing it anyway, I'd be fine with that

Sorry, it's not wrong. What is wrong is being willing to sell something to one party, and withholding it from another.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

Rikkitic

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Reply # 1510608 10-Mar-2016 14:38

TeaLeaf:

is that article citing any legit information that the government plans to make such a law? how long would that take to put in place anyway?

my problem with all this is, if netflix really doesnt like it, why arent they just terminating the accounts they think are breaking their T&Cs? i dont understand why our government would even need a law.

Implementation of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Intellectual Property Chapter

Instructions

This is the submission template for the consultation document, Implementation of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Intellectual Property Chapter.

The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) seeks written submissions on the issues raised in the consultation document by 5pm on Wednesday 30 March 2016. Please make your submission as follows:

And so on. This is the first step to making that law. If you don't like it, you better make a submission. Note the extremely small time window to do so. This in itself is dirty. Usually these things have deadlines of a month or more, sometimes a lot more.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

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